NCavender Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Great Dave! I feel even more empowered now! LOL! Sadiee isn't my first African Grey and I actually studied up on the "Body Language" subject quite a while ago. It's obvious she exhibits the aggression behaviors towards me and I'm fully aware of them and I stay CLEAR. Those "BITES" aren't FUN in the least! Regarding my daughter, no we didn't just negligently allow her to walk up to Sadiee and offer her food. Matter of fact we had had numerous conversations prior to the incident of "Why" she shouldn't get near her. FYI: Our daughter does have Down Syndrome and is "slightly" STUBBORN as a mule and has to learn things the hard way unfortunately sometimes. But thank you for recommending it though. I've come to grips now that she may never really like me, but it doesn't mean I'm going to choose to discard her from our lives. Patience I feel is the key here. For instance...I'm at home today with my daughter and I went and got Sadiee from her cage and placed her on her mobile perch that sits in the living room so she can be a part of everything. On occasion as I pass by I'll give her a treat and talk softly to her, she seems very content at the time. I want her to feel like she's part of the family regardless of her feelings toward me. And as you said about the "baggage" thing, I don't take her behavior towards me personally as I don't have any idea of how she's been treated in the past. All I can do is continue to care for her and interact with r in the least irritating fashison possible and hope for the best! : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave007 Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Great Dave! I feel even more empowered now! LOL! Sadiee isn't my first African Grey and I actually studied up on the "Body Language" subject quite a while ago. It's obvious she exhibits the aggression behaviors towards me and I'm fully aware of them and I stay CLEAR. Those "BITES" aren't FUN in the least! Regarding my daughter, no we didn't just negligently allow her to walk up to Sadiee and offer her food. Matter of fact we had had numerous conversations prior to the incident of "Why" she shouldn't get near her. FYI: Our daughter does have Down Syndrome and is "slightly" STUBBORN as a mule and has to learn things the hard way unfortunately sometimes. But thank you for recommending it though. I've come to grips now that she may never really like me, but it doesn't mean I'm going to choose to discard her from our lives. Patience I feel is the key here. For instance...I'm at home today with my daughter and I went and got Sadiee from her cage and placed her on her mobile perch that sits in the living room so she can be a part of everything. On occasion as I pass by I'll give her a treat and talk softly to her, she seems very content at the time. I want her to feel like she's part of the family regardless of her feelings toward me. And as you said about the "baggage" thing, I don't take her behavior towards me personally as I don't have any idea of how she's been treated in the past. All I can do is continue to care for her and interact with r in the least irritating fashison possible and hope for the best! : ) Just remember to make your husband do some of the grunge work periodically. You may think that all the cleaning feeding is making your bird happy with you but your bird has another toy around to play with---your husband. A child-----who's the child gonna be happy with? the parent who feeds, bathes, dresses them or the parent who plays with them? Remember when you were a kid? As far as your child having Downs Syndrome, don't think that the bird is singling out your daughter. The bird has no idea about Downs Syndrome. He does know she's a child. Your child did absolutely nothing wrong. Also remember that what's going on isn't special. Loads of people here have rehomed birds and those birds came to them with loads of problems, aggressiveness, plucking, being frightened, nervousness, fear of strangers, fear of hands in the cage, screeching and on and on and on. I realize it must be depressing but there are ways to make connections with rehomed birds. Loads and loads of people here can tell you their experiences, some worse or not as bad than yours. Baggage comes in many shapes and sizes and strenghs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdhouse Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 ... I don't pressure her, except possibly when I "towel" her and pet her, but she seems to transition "Ok" and doesn't show much attempt to ever bite me then. Maybe it's because she feels vulnerable? My TAG Phenix was a wild caught & no youngster when I got him 20 yrs ago. He was totally unhandlable & to complicate things, sick. All of which to say he got toweled a lot out of necessity. It was also the popular opinion at the time that toweling a bird would help calm them & tame them. Now, I think that's one of my bigger regrets. Given what I've learned, I feel like it hurt more than it helped because it forces a fid to be helpless. Greys in particular do not do that well at all. I've come to feel like Phenix knew he was "beaten" & submitted in the moment. But it did nothing to help his trust issues. In the long run, I think he just feared me even more. Phenix was my only grey & first "big" parrot. But I've since rehab'd a few other birds w/major aggression issues. I really believe that they need to come to us by choice rather than force. Force is just never a good thing w/a rehab/rehomed fid. They need to feel empowered before they're able to trust their new flock. I also believe that a very large percent of aggression is fear based. Even done correctly (& many people don't realize there's a right & wrong way) toweling can be scary for many birds, at least to some degree. So it's something I've avoided ever since, unless there was an actual necessity for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kins2321@yahoo.com Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 NCavender, I agree with birdhouse. Congratulations! Sadiee doesn't hate you, its what she knows! I think you have GREAT progress with a 15 year old bird. Patience and love for now. Thats all you can offer. Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCavender Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 @ danmcq- I wasn't saying by any means that I was expecting Sadiee to interpret that my daughter has Down Syndrome, I was wanting to clarify that I'd given Madison proper warning about why not to go near Sadiee, that's all. I realize Sadiee is going to be a long term challange and I'm Ok with that. I know how to keep the bites down to a bare minimum and I feel as far as Sadiee goes, I feel she's perfectly happy with the "distant" relationship we've built thus far. I sing/talk to her very regularly and for short periods bring her into the public areas of our home for her to participate in the activities of the household, etc.. For now it seems to be Ok with her, so I'm good. I'll allow things to work itself out through time and patience. Thanks for the feedback! : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave007 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 @ danmcq- I wasn't saying by any means that I was expecting Sadiee to interpret that my daughter has Down Syndrome, I was wanting to clarify that I'd given Madison proper warning about why not to go near Sadiee, that's all. I realize Sadiee is going to be a long term challange and I'm Ok with that. I know how to keep the bites down to a bare minimum and I feel as far as Sadiee goes, I feel she's perfectly happy with the "distant" relationship we've built thus far. I sing/talk to her very regularly and for short periods bring her into the public areas of our home for her to participate in the activities of the household, etc.. For now it seems to be Ok with her, so I'm good. I'll allow things to work itself out through time and patience. Thanks for the feedback! : ) I think you were aiming your last post at me, not Danmcq. I'll take responsibity for my replies/ posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCavender Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 @ birdhouse- I had a male, CAG back in the spring-fall of 2010. His name was Cooper and he chose me. When I had initially went to go see him to see if I wanted him or not, within 30 min's of the visit he regurgitated on my shoulder! He loved me from then on and he NEVER bit me! Now my husband is another story! LOL! I'm receiving the treatment from Sadiee he once received from Cooper. I could do whatever I wanted to do to him and he never minded. I lost Cooper to a tragic accident and I feel like I failed him terribly! I guess I was hoping for a relationship to evolve with Sadiee to that degree, but I know it'll never be. I just need to let go and allow Sadiee to be herself and quit forcing a "type" of relationship she doesn't want with me. As far a the "toweling" goes, I will stop that. I toweled her 9 days ago, so I'll not do it again. There is sooooo much information out there and it's quite frustrating and confusing. I comprehend the concept that every bird is different from another, even if it's the same breed/species, they can still react and behave very differently. It's all trial and error and it's a journey and it's one step at a time. Although I'm not a totally "Green" fid owner there is always great room for growth and I welcome all the help I can get for the happiness and healthiness of my pets. Thank you for your encouragement and advice, I appreciate it all. @ kins2321- Thank you for the kind encouragement! : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCavender Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 @ dave007- So very sorry....you appeared to respond a little abrasively to my flub up on directing the message to the wrong "Dave". I'm human and I made a mistake....sorry. I'm sure you're more than capable of handling and addressing your comments and statements, no ill intent at all, just a mistake. I apologize for the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave007 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 (edited) I have a TAG that's now 17 yrs old. I got him when he was 8 yrs old. His huge problem was extreme aggressiveness. The people who owned him were very frightened by him. His whole thing was serious biting. This bird would be hanging out on his cage and evry chance he got, he would attack the husband, the wife. He went out of his way to find them just to bite them.The people were very nice though. It wasn't their fault. Actually, we knew each other slightly when the husband and I were on another board. They couldn't approach this bird without a stick. Even then, there were attack problems. He inflicted serious bites but the people were patient. This went on for quite a while. He had his own cage which he knew every nook and cranny. They couldn't get near him. Getting him into the cage was only done by putting food in the cage. They were afraid of letting him out. Long story short, the couple had a baby. When the baby was about 7 mts old, the bird found out where she was and went after the kid. Luckily, he never succeeded in biting the kid. That's when I received a call from the wife who was crying and she asked me to take the bird which I did. They drove about 250 miles to my house. They brought the bird and the cage. When I got him it was obvious that he had no intentions of calming down so the very first thing I did was put in an order to Ebay and got another cage that was a duplicate of the cage of my other grey. 6 days later it arrived and I quickly assembled it and I immediately put him in it. Then I took his cage and dumped it out for recycling. Putting him in another cage immediaately killed off his familiarity with any cage so I had the advantage there. He went after my dog and my other grey. The only bird he feared was a male quaker I had who went after him. So, it took me and my wife a little more than a year to change this bird's temperament. She and I got many bites but we persevered. It was a very hard struggle. It was difficult because he was set in his ways. My point is that even serious biters can be calmed down and become family birds even though it may take a long period of time. Today, the bird's favorite place is on my shoulder and he'll stay there all day if I let him. He's always with me when I'm on the PC. I even forget he's there because he like to sleep up there. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/DaveVP/CopyofDSCN0164.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/DaveVP/CopyofDSCN0173.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/DaveVP/Shrimp--PJ-1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/DaveVP/SShrimp--PJ-2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/DaveVP/CopyofDSCN0028-1.jpg Edited January 8, 2013 by Dave007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 Great story Dave and the photos were GreYTt!! Lets see .... adding to my notes here.... how to win over greys and influence others..... GET SHRIMP!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbersmom Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 That would work with me Dan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kins2321@yahoo.com Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 NCavender I'm so sorry about your loss! Cooper I'm sure, was very important to you. Grief, takes many forms. You will never forget Cooper, and noone can ever replace him. You have so much energy, and I know Saidee has a great mom, waiting on the back burner waiting to be a mom. It CAN happen. Don't give up, and PLEASE give up that she hates you and things won't change. With your energy and zest for life, she can't win. Someday I will post my " rules" for Sophie. I will tell you, rule number five...( I'm very hesitant to share my rules for fear of attack, but I think you need it)... "We are a package deal. Get to know everyone including other animals, and accept them". Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCavender Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 @ Nancy- Yes! I sure miss that feller! :*( He was my boy! And I feel like I've failed him after all the love he gave me. I've moved on with that guilt though, I just wish Sadiee wasn't so hateful to me, but I understand that each bird comes with it's very own "baggage". I have all the patience in the world and as much time as the good Lord will grant me soooo it's only Up from here! : ) I'm such an animal lover and I've always had animals in my life that bonded and adored me and it's almost like Sadiee has become a "challenge" for me...."You're gonna LIKE me one way or the other!". Since CAG's are stubborn and I'm stubborn, looks like we've got a GOOD TIME on our hands! LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCavender Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 @ Dan007(I think???? LOL!!!)- Thanks for sharing that story. All I can say is that TAG hit the jack pot with you and your wife being so tolerant of such "painful" interactions and such. An old friend of mine had purchased an CAG from a lady off craigs list about a week before I found Sadiee and her bird was aggressive towards all of them in the home and has bitten a couple of them withing the first couple of days and had posted on FB that she was wanting to sell her! I began questioning her about #1) Where they placed her cage?(low/high traffic area, quiet/noisey area, etc.), #2) Was there alot of loud, boisterous speaking/yelling going on in the home and esp around the bird's cage?(She has two boys, 13 and 8), #3) Did they approach her quickly and non-respectfully?, and some other things and her answers were ALL the "wrong" ones! I'm by far NOT even pretending to be a avian expert(as you can see by my situation with Sadiee here...), but I do have some "common sence" advice I can pass on to the novice fid owner and I was very frustrated why she took this advanced/highly intelligent bird into her home being a first time bird owner, the bird acts out and you all can put the puzzle pieces together I'm positive, and then it's "Get rid of the bird!!!", out the door you go! And these folks let who ever that crawls out from under a rock take these birds off their hands and then people like "us" end up with emotionally WRECKED birds on our hands to pick up the pieces with. Grrrrrr!!! So, I believe anyone that has the heart to stick it out with these poweful biting birds are pretty darn good people! When Madison(my daughter) had received her first, christening bite(of which was really a bad one) from Sadiee, she had to share her Boo-Boo with our pastor's wife and she's totally ANTI animal period, esp when a child gets hurt and she looked at me with this disgusted look on her face and said bluntly..."And that "BIRD" is still alive?!?!?!?!". I said "Yes MAM! Sure is and she's not going anywhere!***with a VERY polite smile on my face*** ;-) and she just looked at me in disbelief, maybe even disgust? Animals are animals and bite's and incident's are going to happen without a doubt! These aggressive birds just need someone to stick it out with them, that's all. And I understand some situations there may be no other options but to rehome, esp with your TAG stalking out the baby ***YIKES***, but I like to see the end products of my goals and challenges and I refuse to give up on Sadiee. But let's not all forget....she LOVES my husband! LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbersmom Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Yes, it is really sad that your friend isn't willing to work through things, but it is common. When I rehomed Timber, I had NO idea about the baggage, etc. I thought I would just bring him home, put him in the cage, buy the proper feed, and all would be well. What I'm trying to say is that "ignorance" is common among people who want a bird. They think they are like cats and dogs. Had I not found this forum, Timber would have probably spent the rest of his life confined primarily to his cage. I wouldn't have even had the sense to rehome him if I couldn't deal with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janfromboone Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Thanks Dave for a wonderful story about how you can turn a birds life around. Love a happy ending. I posted a short wile ago about Tobie biting me for the first time ( with intent to inflict harm ) - see page 68. It has been a while since those incidences. He once again attact me. Same situation. First thing in the morning I had just gotten up and the first thing I do is open the cage. This morning I was distracted after opening the cage and turned toward my aquarium and started cleaning the algae off the glass. When I finished my hands were wet and holding my hands up like a surgeon I walked past Tobie's cage to wash them in the sink - not even looking at Tobie. He bit my hand as I walked by - just a quick jab that actually broke the skin and punctured a vein on my hand which spurted blood and I had to run to the sink to keep the mess in one spot while I applied pressure. Now Tobie is still looking agressive and I know that if I got close enough he would bite again. When I finally got the bleeding stopped Tobie was not entirely calm and saying "you OK" over and over While leaning out toward me and feathers slicked down. I said Of course I'm not OK - get in your cage!! Strangely he did get in the cage and I shut the door. An hour later I let him out and he was chatty and had a totally different sweet demeanor. What in the world is this. I wonder if it has to do with mornings when I don't get dressed and look different - you know - no make up and hair all a muss in my PJs. I know at least two of these times were on my days off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 (edited) Oh Jan, those blind side bites certainly catch all us off guard! It does sound like the combination of things like just opened the cage, the change of normal routine with you going to the tank then walking past with arms help in an unusual position while hurriedly walking past Tobie instigated the quick bite. It is good to hear Tobie realized he had hurt you in his knee jerk reaction, based on your comments. The addition of not being "Cleaned up and Dressed" as you normally are probably added to the abnormality of that morning. I know sometimes when I am being lazy on a weekend and am not cleaned up before I uncover the cages, dayo gives me the oddest looks sometimes with hair mussed up, sleepy eyes and all. He sometimes fluffs up as if to say "Ok, what did you do with my REAL daddy?" It is those quick shots we never see coming that truly alarm us. I get them every once in a while as well and they are normally when I am at his cage doing something. Those are the ones that you realize you are experiencing severe pain from somewhere on an appendage and then look to see and then know you have been or are being bitten....OUCH!!!! Edited January 12, 2013 by danmcq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janfromboone Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Thanks for your response. You are right - I felt a bump on my hand and looked down to the blood squirting. It was really a very little cut in the end though. I just need to be more careful of his body language I suppose. The painful part is just the fact that he would do that. It is such a total deviation from Tobies normal personality. Helps to know that this happens even with Dayo who has such a knowlegable and loving dad. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdhouse Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 While I was reading, I kept wondering why Tobie was so upset, though. What you posted sounded like it was more spontaneous to me. Like something spooked Tobie badly & his reaction was misplaced aggression. They're famous for that & you aren't likely to get much warning from their body language if that's it. Everything happens too fast. Phenix was going thru a bad phase where there was just no understanding why he was lashing out. I was prepared to write it off as Phenix being Phenix, because he's not a sweetie like Tobie. Then I was *lucky enough* to be changing his water dish & saw a hawk go by the window just as I was about to get nailed. ...OH! Turned out they were building a nest in the yard. By the look of it, they'd probably been coming & going for a while. I hadn't seen them. But Phenix had & he does not like them at all. Birds don't miss anything that happens around them & that means everything they see, smell & hear. So this made me wonder if Tobie's seeing/smelling/hearing something you're not or don't realize is even scary to him. Whatever it is, I hope you can figure it out soon, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbersmom Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Jan, my first thought was what you said about "holding both hands up like a surgeon." Timber is "hand shy" a bit. He sees an open hand as a threat. I start scratching him even with one finger until he relaxes. Probably not the case with your bird, but just a thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janfromboone Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Thanks for your responses. Good thoughts. The way I was holding my hands may have been a trigger. The only common denominator I can think of is the fact that it has always been morning and just as I open the cage though every morning and everytime I open the cage this doesn't happen. It's not the season for hawks but the little birds have been frequenting my feeder. It's only happened 4 times and spaced way apart. Maybe he just gets up on the wrong side of the perch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lycraloon Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Hi All, Since I have a track record of late, at receiving Bites while completely minding my own business.:evil: I have been asked to be the CEO of a new Start-Up called "The Parrot Bite Me Club". :woohoo: So as most of you have probably read already, of my expert level mastery of consistently receiving Bites Daily, lets hear your adventures in biting!! {Feel-bad-00020080}<br><br>Post edited by: danmcq, at: 2007/07/16 03:52 You can count me out of this one too. I have never bitten my parrot. Not once. Scouts honour. True story. Oh but the temptation has been there a number of times. Peta has thankfully never bitten me either. She has nipped a few times but no serious bite or war wounds from interacting with her. Joe, My exe's grey, has bitten her a number of times and often tried to "tie one on" with me. He's just too dumb to get it right, but now we've split up, he will never get that oportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 hats good to hear Lycraloon. Some greys very rarely deliver a blood gushing bite. You are fortunate that peta is one of them, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonRock Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 No blood gushing, but bite received. I put my arm up to the outside of the cage and playfully said "Step up!" Yeah, I know. Very stupid. Oscar bit my wrist, and didn't want to let go. Luckily he seemed to be feeling almost playful. Lesson learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janfromboone Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I'd love to know the natural psychology of wild african greys in a flock. Do they bite each other? They must work as a unit to survive. I can't see a bunch of bickering african greys forming a cohesive unit. If one bird bites does the other bite back? I recall a post that there is no pecking order among parrots and that there is little if any conflict. Then why do we get bites at times. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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