Clarification On Positive Reincorcement Please

[Moobu]

I learned my positive reinforcement techniques from the ever controversial Chet Womach videos and I feel I may be missing a few tidbits of information.

 

Firstly my method I have derived of PR training is pretty simple and as far as I know spot on.

 

1.) Train the bird to recognize a click from a clicker to mean they are getting a treat.

2.)Use the clicker the moment a bird finishes doing the desired action and promptly give a treat.

3.) Completely ignore all bad behaviors as if they did not happen to help discourage them.

4.) Never under any circumstances negatively punish your birds in a physical or vocal way.

 

Please correct or add any information in the list as you see fit. I appreciate reasoning behind corrections if possible as hit helps me to see the purpose of the change.

 

Number 3 and 4 are where I am the most fuzzy. How do we go about untraining behaviors we do not want? As an example, Barney occasionally gets in a very chewey mood when in my lap or on my shoulder. I obviously prefer my clothing without giant beak shaped holes ripped throughout them. Another example I would like to correct is maybe trying to get Barney and Onyx to stop shredding their droppings papers. Onyx can reach his through his grate when Barney only really has access to the stand perch outside of his cage. I've already attempted wadding up newspaper and tried using it as a distraction to shred. No luck.

[Jane08]

Looks like you have the basic idea there. With the bad behaviours you untrain it by positively reinforcing a good behaviour and over time the bad behaviour will decrease when they realise they get treats for doing something good.

 

You can't use positive reinforcement for everything sometimes it's more smart to just rearrange things in the environment. An example is our grey rangi always flies to the open cupboard and throws the glasses out. Now there is no way I could change this with positive reinforcement so it's easier for me to just make sure the cupboard is closed.

 

With the chewing of the clothes it's best to just remove them from you when they start to chew. If they don't chew then they are allowed to stay on you. Over time it will click to them that if they don't chew they are allowed on you and get attention.

 

With the shredding of the paper this is probably one where positive reinforcement is really not an option and the distraction or finding another way where they can't reach the paper is better.

[Moobu]

It sounds like practicing subtle negative reinforcement as a last resort. Setting them down would be a negative they dislike for their action. As far as I understand you don't want to punish your bird outright and the goal is to more anti reward him. Sounds similar I know but I mean obviously no yelling at him but the negative punishment would be taking contact with me away for a little bit.

 

Does this about sum it up? Does anybody know if finding a sound to play to demonstrate a negative action and train them in a double fashion is plausible?

[Jane08]

Yes you are right negative reinforcement can be used as a training technique as well in certain cases of if you know how to use it correctly.

 

For example with our grey Kea if I ask her to step up on the stick she will because she wants to avoid the stick touching her body. This is negative reinforcement. So negative reinforcement is an adverese stimuli (stick touching her body) which they are trying to avoid which increases the behaviour that you want (stepping up).

[danmcq]

I just want to say something about "Negative" responses. All birds understand them and use them to communicate to one another and also to us. A bite or threat there of, is a "Negative" communication coming our way to let us know it's not acceptable or they do not want to comply.

 

I do not buy into the "Birds don't understand punishment" theory. Of course, I do not view giving negative feedback such as stopping the activity, returning the bird to the cage or getting the "Stick" for step-up, as punishment, but rather as a "Negative" indicator to them, which they DO understand.

 

Positive rewards for doing something like a trick or command of course work wonders with lots of high fives, treat etc. as has already been stated here. :-)<br><br>Post edited by: danmcq, at: 2009/09/02 15:19

[Dave007]

""""As an example, Barney occasionally gets in a very chewey mood when in my lap or on my shoulder. I obviously prefer my clothing without giant beak shaped holes ripped throughout them. """""

 

Very simple solution --don't allow the bird to go to those areas. Some birds do and there's no problems. Some birds do go to those areas and go after clothing, ear lobes, jewelry, hair, cheeks etc. As time goes on they adapt very well to those areas and they become very difficult to get off.

 

""""""Another example I would like to correct is maybe trying to get Barney and Onyx to stop shredding their droppings papers."""""

 

A grey and many other species rip and chew paper if they can get to it. Do they care of there's feces on it? Absolutely not. It's a bird's instinct to do that.

 

""""4.) Never under any circumstances negatively punish your birds in a physical or vocal way."""""

 

That's been known by parrot owners for many years. Much longer than Chet has decided to tell people about it. Greys and other species don't know what punishment( physical). Vocal simply makes the bird do it again because what it's done has gotten a rise out of the person.

 

"""""Does anybody know if finding a sound to play to demonstrate a negative action and train them in a double fashion is plausible?""""""

 

Nothing like that exists

[Moobu]

Do you think enforcing a negative method similar to the positive method at the same time would be effective though? For lack of a better sound coming to mind lets say you use the standard clicker sound as your positive reinforcement. Could you use say... another sound such as a specific bell ring (bad example I know, insert good sound here that can be used) to train the bird that this was wrong and this was right? One would assume, if given the correct "anti rewards", this would be just as effective at training your parrot what not to do to create bad sound x as it would be to train him on what to do to create good sound x.

 

I've heard nothing but bad things about practiced negative reinforcement. I think this is good food for thought though.

[Jane08]

I really don't think the noise for somehting done wrong is a good idea. Our birds do the wrong thing because there is something that they get out of it which they enjoy, you could end up actually reinforcing the bad behaviour because you are giving them the attention for doing somehting wrong. This is exactly what they want. It could also force your bird into other bad bahavours that you don't want.

[danmcq]

Most birds like many noises and actually enjoy them. Thus a bird throwing stainless bowls, dishes, cup, toys etc. to hear the crash, ding, clang etc.

 

Noises that irritate them ,just irritate and piss them off, from what I've seen in my grey. I tried growlng at my Grey a few times to see if he would naturally recognize that what he was doing was not acceptable.... He just fluffed up and growled back...... so I dropped that theory. :whistle:

[Moobu]

Jane you are only looking at half of the picture painted here as far as I can tell. From your response it seems you are imagining making the "negative" noise during something you don't want to happen then giving a reward as you would for the positive reward. Keep in mind I'm wondering if giving some form of "anti reward" like being set down and left alone for a little bit would create a reaction in the bird understanding that action x created noise x and noise x gave me reward x where action y created noise y and gave me anti reward y.

 

Dan that's a funny story about your grey growling back lol. In the example you gave about bowl throwing.. do you think it would be possible to create an alternative way to create the sound for the bird in order to stop the throwing?

[Dave007]

Whenever I go into my bird's aviary room, they start squawking loudly if I'm carrying any cardboard boxes around. I hate it when they do that. What they're doing is *Y noise* because it's extremely annoying. Of course, they're in their cages and usually sitting on their perch. So that takes care of the *like being set down and left alone for a little bit* Maybe they're doing it cause they wanna be *Y* birds. I don't really know. They could act like *X* birds if they wanted to but as you must know, birds will be birds.

 

Then the time comes for cleaning---It really doesn't matter whether I use a low sounding or high sounding vaccuum. All of them start squawking--of course I take them out of the room and put them in a distant area when I'm doing this but they still continue to be *Y* birds. Then when I put them back, I may give them *X* rewards but some may not accept *X* rewards and flip them away. Yes, I understand that I shouldn't give them *X* rewards because they were acting like *Y* birds. Maybe they're just being spiteful.

 

Now for my TAG--He loves to fly over to one of my quaker's cages and run around the top and sides of the cage. It causes the quaker to run around and follow him and squawk at him because he's annoying her. I hate to see her annoyed but she's acting very defensively *Y* because of her noise. He's also acting very offensively *Y* cause he's the one that starts the whole thing. In my eyes, he's showing negative *Y* behavior.

 

Now for one of my other greys---of course cages need to be cleaned so a tray is pulled out and cleaned but the gratings also needs to be pulled out to be cleaned but as I'm pulling it out this grey's grating from his cage he grabs one of the bars and tries to stop me from pulling it out. As a matter of fact, he actually has the audicity of coming down from his perch to do this. Actually it looks like a tug of war. This is extremely annoying to me cause he's interupting my time schedule. Obviously he's acting very *Y*. I know he's acting very *Y* because when it comes time to put the grating back in, He acts very *X*.

 

So please tell me what *Y* rewards I can give them so they'll start acting like *X* birds.

 

Thank god for Dan saying what happened when he growled at his bird when it growled. Who would have know that the growling would escalate instead of diminishing and sadly, who would have known that his bird had the nerve to fluff up!!!!

 

PS--- personally, I think Dan's situation disn't get too crazy. JUST Imagine if they both started barking at each other. I personally believe a bird can bark louder and then there would have been a very serious double *Y* situation going on yet it would have been difficult to judge who was more *Y*!!!!!

 

Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2009/09/04 00:59<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2009/09/04 20:21

[Jane08]

Moobu yeah I knew you were talking about anti rewards i.e. setting them down etc and no I didn't mean give a positive treat for the bad noise that would just not work.

 

It's like Rangi loves to torment Kea sometimes and just approaches her in a certain way or touches her feathers with his beak and she lets out this distinct scream like someone is killing her. I know he enjoys hearing her scream so it becomes a game with him and he gets so much enjoyment out of it. It's like the noise of her scream encourages him.

 

Dan I also tried something similar with Rangi when he would bite me I let out a scream (similar to the scream Kea would let out when he bit her as when she made it he backed off). Big mistake he loved it, so I also dropped that one.

 

Dave I can just see you having tug of war, lol what a laugh. They all seem to love noise especially the vacuum cleaner, the TV, forget cranking that up at night to drown them out they just get louder.

[Char]

I have never used any kind of treat as positive reinforcement. Praise has worked well for Whisper and I.

 

I respond to negative behavior with a stern "look" and say "no" and if that does not work a time out happens. I don't agree with not giving them negative responses.

They have the intelligence of a small child and I believe respond much the same way as small children. Sometimes it is just necessary to remove her from a situation that she is misbehaving in. For instance if she won't leave my keyboard alone I just remove her.

 

This has worked for me. I must be doing something right or just be extremely blessed with one of the sweetest and most well behaved greys alive.

[danmcq]

Dave007 wrote:

Thank god for Dan saying what happened when he growled at his bird when it growled. Who would have know that the growling would escalate instead of diminishing and sadly, who would have known that his bird had the nerve to fluff up!!!!

 

PS--- personally, I think Dan's situation isn't too crazy. JUST Imagine if they both started barking at each other. I personally believe a bird can bark louder and then there would have been a very serious double *Y* situation going on yet it would have been difficult to judge who was more *Y*!!!!!

 

Hahahahahahaha Dave!! :-)

 

Well, considering the X and Y theories stated above. I believe the reason my "Theory" didn't work. I forgot basic chromosomes in human sexing. Dayo and I bot are Males, therefore we have both the X and Y Chromosome. There an X or a Y cannot produce a different outcome in either one of our reactions. A "Z" must be introduced into the situation.

 

Now, it is possible the "Theory" may work on females if you use "Y" only, due to females having XX Chromosomes.