Punishment!?

[hveusnthbrige]

What your method of punishment for your bird?

 

As birds do not understand negative enforcement its not like a dog that will straighten up with the yank of a choke chain for running around during a leisurely walk. Or a little brat kid that gets a spanking on the arse from Dad for playing with matches.

 

And I know that some people will say punishment is cruel and you should never resort to training this way. Yet all things considered sometimes it comes to this and its nice to have an invasive method of teaching that will not result in a grudge from the Grey or any undue harm.

 

The method that I have come to accept and understand is when the parrot is doing something displeasing that ignoring wont correct, for example it bites your ear while on your shoulder(ignoring works on things like screaming), is: I will quickly initiate doing very fast step ups around waist level at arms length. One step up after the other causing the bird to flap its wings furiously and become rather exhausted from all this work and exercise it's being forced into. If the bird gets tired I will promptly demand for it to comply by emulating a drill sergeant and demanding another step up. Once I see the bird huffin and puffin I'll put it down and then tell it thats what happens when you bite me!

 

This method got my cockatiel to stop biting me in almost 2-3 episodes. I now use it if he bites the other cockatiel. If another person in the house gets bitten then I tell them to give the bird this treatment to show it whos boss. So far my father hasnt done it enough so he still gets a stern hiss from the bird and bitten at times. Pinkie will not dare hiss at me or bite me as he knows that it will result in the step up neverending ladder of doom...

 

Even after this method of punishment the bird holds no negative feelings for me. The hen cockatiel, April still begs to have her head scratched by me and clearly loves me to death so I know it doesnt form a grudge against me.

 

So again, what do you use as your form of punishment? And to those people that have no positive comment in this topic please refrain from initiating a forum war. Pleasant, insightful conversation please!:side:

[CeasarsDad]

Punishment.. No, never.. only love.. love and more love.. and i think you know this anyway.. but in my case, I never punish Ceasar. But then again, I am blessed with such a well behaved bird I can't believe it.. I know it might not always be this way.. He is only 14 months old.. but I am enjoying him at this phase for sure...

[dblhelix]

There are many ways to deal with undesirable behavior, the concept of punishment is not one of them for me. They are smart, but we are smarter. Every interaction between us and the bird should be geared in a positive direction to build trust and respect. There are lots of books and articles on this topic. "Laddering" is very specifically one of the old forms of "punishment" that is no longer recommended. If the bird bites you, put it down, in its cage, take a break for 5 or 10 mins. Then resume. The bird will soon learn that if it wants to be with you, the biting must stop. Certainly there are behaviors that are not acceptable and must be extinguished but there are ways to deal with those in a manner that will ultimately build a stronger and better relationship between owner and bird.<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/07/06 09:27

[Guest Lidia]

You will very quickly lose the trust of your bird if you continue to use punishment to train it. Your method sounds quite unpleasant. Birds do not understand abstract concepts like punishment and will take your behaviour as an act of spite and will respond in kind. Your grey will most assuredly not respond well to bullying. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you will end up dealing with severe behavioural problems if you continue down this road.<br><br>Post edited by: Lidia, at: 2007/07/06 11:04

[Guest Lidia]

CeasarsDad wrote:

I am blessed with such a well behaved bird I can't believe it.. I know it might not always be this way.. He is only 14 months old.. but I am enjoying him at this phase for sure...

 

Sweetie, it isn't always going to be like this! Get ready for the terrible twos, the awful sevens, the monstrous twelves, and the thoroughly evil sixteens! You have to love the bird but be real. Don't you have any scars yet?

[judygram]

I'm not ready for the terrible twos, the awful sevens, the monstros twelves, or the thoroughly evil sixteens so don't tell me this, you are scaring me {Emotions-00020120} And like CD I have a well behaved grey and no scars yet but I want to keep it that way. {Feel-bad-00020072}

[CeasarsDad]

Lidia wrote:

Sweetie, it isn't always going to be like this! Get ready for the terrible twos, the awful sevens, the monstrous twelves, and the thoroughly evil sixteens! You have to love the bird but be real. Don't you have any scars yet?

 

Hi Lidia.. Actually I have NEVER been bitten hard by Ceasar, and if you watched that 1 minute video I posted I do not baby him. Ceasar, from the time he was 20 weeks (when we got him) would grab your finger and push you away.. Never bite.. This was one of the main reasons I choose him..

 

Now if you contrast that against my Yellow Nape. WOW what a difference.. My Yellow Nape turned my hands into chop meat from the day we got him as a baby until the day I gave him away many many years later..<br><br>Post edited by: CeasarsDad, at: 2007/07/06 13:49

[Guest Lidia]

judygram wrote:

I'm not ready for the terrible twos, the awful sevens, the monstros twelves, or the thoroughly evil sixteens so don't tell me this, you are scaring me

 

I just mean prepare for the unexpected! As they get older they do try to exert their independence and this can result in biting behaviour developing (for a while at least). They can also bite when they get over-excited when playing games (I have been bitten a number of times when playing throw & catch (with a ball) with Joshua, who thunders after the ball but sometimes gets my hand instead. These accidental bites scare him and I have to comfort HIM afterwards, when they happen. I have been bitten when Joshua has hurt himself and panics (he got his wing stuck in the cage once when he was four years old and I still have the scar from that one). I have been bitten when Joshua is telling me he doesn't want a cuddle and I am too persistent. And I have been bitten when his molt is heavy and all the new feathers are making him irritable. Mostly, my scars are accidental ones, but you must expect to be bitten now and then. I don't think I was bitten at all by him for probably the first couple of years of his life. And then he hit the terrible twos...

 

{Feel-good-0002006B}<br><br>Post edited by: Lidia, at: 2007/07/06 14:14

[Talon]

I have to agree with Lidia. Talon was a very sweet bird, who rarely nipped. But these last couple of months or so, as she is nearing 2, she is getting more feisty, and independent. For example, in the am coming out of her cage and stepping up has to be when SHE is ready. This is new for her, nothing about her morning routine has changed, just her asserting her independence. So,I walk away, and go back on occasion until she decides she's ready. She'll just sit on the outside edge, and tease me. She will nip, when I try to get her to step up, it has to be HER decision. I don't care. because I know this is just a stage, and it will pass. I have noticed she's not as cuddly as before, but I imagine this will pass also.

 

If she does something like nipping or biting, I just put her on her play stand away from me, and come back in a little while when she's gotten over her little fit. They don't like to be ignored, so that seems to work the best.

 

I have gotten bit very good, especially when I had to towel her twice a day and give her antibiotics for 10 days. That hurt!!

 

{Feel-bad-00020080}

[Guest Lidia]

Talon wrote:

I have gotten bit very good, especially when I had to towel her twice a day and give her antibiotics for 10 days. That hurt!!

 

I feel your pain!

 

{Feel-bad-00020066}<br><br>Post edited by: Lidia, at: 2007/07/06 15:45

[hveusnthbrige]

dblhelix, laddering works for a tiel but this is why I began this topic, I have concerns for using it on a Grey. So in effect I'm trying to think of definitive methods to avoid it like you say.

 

Cockatiels seems to 'reset' every morning. If the day or evening before he was being belligerent and got a laddering treatment, he will look at me a little hint of angriness in his eyes. But the next morning... all is well once again. Yet, the behaviours that induced the laddering also returns! So I think I am going to adopt a new method in effort to correct it.

 

I have no doubt in my mind that a Grey will not 'reset' its emotions toward a nasty person.

 

It seems like laddering is a last resort method, or a coarse adjustment in their behaviours. I do know many aviculturalists that use it and they have many fabulously behaved birds that love their owners to pieces.

 

 

So another method I sometimes used is a Time Out cage in another boring room that just has water in it where he goes for 5-10 minutes. But I no longer have a 2nd cage so I won't be doing this anymore.

[CeasarsDad]

Lidia and Talon.. Believe me, I know I am gonna see changes. It would be foolish not to listen to you guys as both of you have older birds then Ceasar.. I'll understand when these changes happen and deal with them... Until then, I am just gonna have my way with him while I can...

[Guest Lidia]

CeasarsDad wrote:

Until then, I am just gonna have my way with him while I can...

 

Now, that's just plain alarming! {Emotions-000200B8}

 

hveusnthbrige wrote:

So another method I sometimes used is a Time Out cage in another boring room that just has water in it where he goes for 5-10 minutes. But I no longer have a 2nd cage so I won't be doing this anymore.

 

This is really just as bad. Isolation is a terrible punishment and very cruel and the bird does not understand it. This applies to cockatiels, AGs, and probably any other thinking/feeling animal out there.

You've got great advice already in here, just put the bird down and ignore it for a few minutes! This is enough, you don't have to do any more than that. I am sorry if this sounds dogmatic but really some of these things you are doing are just not necessary.<br><br>Post edited by: Lidia, at: 2007/07/06 17:15

[CeasarsDad]

Lidia.. Yeah well, I don't mean "have my way with him" quite like it sounds.. :P :P

[Tari]

I "wobble" for any kind of biting even when it dose not hurt. (mostly with my quakers dont have to with my grey she dont bite) I do time outs for over excitement that I think can lead to biting mostly with my amazon.

But I dont do any kind of aggressive type "punishments" with any of my parrots. Oh and not one of my parrots are allowed on my shoulder I like my ears and eyes just as they are. :laugh:

[Guest Lidia]

Tari wrote:

I "wobble" for any kind of biting even when it dose not hurt.

 

Wobbling is a good way to describe it, I do that too. I like your little bouncing owl (?) icon. Very cute.

[Tari]

Thanks it makes me smile no matter what mood I'm in.

[judygram]

Actually I can't wait for these times, I need to find out what a real bite is but for now I have my way with her like CD does and he knows what I mean, don't cha baby.:woohoo:

[CeasarsDad]

judygram wrote:

Actually I can't wait for these times, I need to find out what a real bite is but for now I have my way with her like CD does and he knows what I mean, don't cha baby.:woohoo:

 

yes I do.. and what's with all these posts.. You are gonna pass me.. :P

[judygram]

I passed Talon didin't I, I can do it, I can do it, I can do it, I know I can, aw what the heck.

I am not looking forward to battle scars but my sweet Josey has not bitten me yet so I need to know what it is like, but I can wait, I have patience unlike some.:unsure:

[Talon]

Judy, Don't worry, it will hurt like needle nose pliers that close fast and hard and don't let go!! If your lucky, which I seem to be, (but not others in my house) it won't be bad enough to bleed!

 

You really can see it coming, if you are in tune with your bird, just sometimes I get too busy to really pay attention to her moods and desires.

 

LIke Tari, I allow Talon on my shoulder any time she wants, and she has learned to stay away from my face and ears, by verbal commands. If she tests me, I put her down for a couple of minutes, and then she's fine.

[Tari]

Sounds like you have a great relationship with your grey Talon you should be proud of yourself and her.

[greylover]

well my african grey chico is very naughty he bites me all the time but i just put him down and walk away and dont look at him then 5 mins later i pick him up again and then he doesn't do it but it is not that simple.I had a blue crown conure but sadly it passedaway,but he never bit so i gon info of this forum.This forum is the best forum ever for me!!!!!!!!!

[Talon]

Thank you Tari, That means a lot coming from you. Karma for you from me today! :)

[dblhelix]

I certainly reconize there are negative behaviors that need to be dealt with through mild punishment. Punishment that presents in averse consequences to the parrot should not be used as they will back fire on your goal in the long run. Some recommended techniques to deal with unwnated behaviors are:

 

-evaluate the problem to decide on best action

-ask why is the bird doing this?

-consider changing the behavior a positive challenge

-realize there is often not a "quick fix"

-remove the bird for a short time

-ignore behavior

-divert birds attention when unwanted behavior is presented

-minimize your reaction to unwanted behaviors

-identify a positive alternative. That is, find something for your bird to do more, not less.

 

There are many more. The main goal is to ensure that even when intervening on a "bad" behavior, make the ratio of positive to negative interactions high. An environment rich with praise, attention and trust will build a better relationship for you both over the long run. Birds generally do not respond well to bullying.