flying?

[udannefitz]

My 11 week old has discovered he can fly. I am planning to take him this week to have his flight feathers trimmed. He's once glided into the glass door so I'm afraid of him hurting himself. Once is is trimmed, I understand he will be able to 'glide' but not fly? Will he then have to learn his limitations all over again?

[JungleDreamz]

This is a very contoversal subject and everyone has there own opinion about wing clipping...I was against it untill my grey flew into the glass door about 4 times, I was too worried he would hurt himself, so I did a very mild cut on his wings so he could still fly just not as far. I wouldnt of cut my birds wings if there wasnt a problem...But it was doing more harm than good to have him flying into things.

 

Others feel you shouldnt clip at all, And if you were someone who felt this way, I have heard that putting up hanging beads in the door way or putting dark colored tape on the windows would help.

 

But Everyone has a right to their own opinion. And no one ir right or wrong.

 

It is good though that you at least let him learn to fly, some books have said not ever learning to fly because of cutting the wings before they ever learn is bad for them emotionally and may have behavior problems in the future.

[judygram]

Why don't you read thru this thread about wing clipping before you commit to clipping your baby's wings, it will take up to a year for them to grow out again.

 

http://www.greyforums.net/forums/the-grey-lounge/25408-the-african-grey-to-clip-or-not-to-clip.html#25408

 

But if you choose to clip make sure it is done correctly by someone who knows how, maybe your avian vet for if it is too severe he will fall like a rock instead of gliding.

 

There are things like clingys you can put on windows and doors with lots of glass that will let him know he can't fly thru it.<br><br>Post edited by: judygram, at: 2009/06/30 17:17

[Tycos_mom]

your bird has just learned to fly he still needs to learn to land properly he is not fully fledged yet its very bad to clip a birds wings before it is fully fledged take your bird up to the glass door everytime you take him out and touch the glass then get your bird to do the same with his beak he will soon learn there is a barrier there and won't try to fly through it anymore. I have a sun room with lots of windows and a baby grey nd she flys all over that room and never into a window she knows exactly how close she can get and turns just before hitting the glass its called training your bird instead of taking away the very thing that makes them a bird.

[Janfromboone]

My grey has never had the opportunity to fly. Clipped as a baby when I bought him, he began to molt out his clipped flight feathers and one by one he chewed them off as they got long enough to extend past the other wing feathers. I've heard that you can put plastic ornamental things that stick to the glass on your windows until the bird learns about glass. You can sometimes find them at the dollar store or Walmart. I used to feel that the birds were safer clipped, but after reading all the pros and cons, and after watching Tobie crash to the floor many times, I think it is good for birds to be flighted for a while at least.

[chimaysmommy]

I have to agree with Tycos_mom in that your baby needs to fully learn how to fly and land before being clipped. It's a crucial stage of their development that benefits them so much physically and psychologically. I'm not at all saying that you should clip or not clip, that is up to you as your baby's paRRont. But in order to build up the confidence and physical coordination that is needed after being clipped (or remaining unclipped), he must be permitted to fully fledge.

 

Please keep us posted on the progress!

[dhorje]

Why don't you install a curtain and keep the wings?

[udannefitz]

Thanks to everyone for their advice. My Amazon could fly and he loved it when my husband would 'throw' him like a football in our old apartment in New York. He would glide for a few seconds, fly a few feet and make a 90 degree turn to go down the hallway landing on the shower curtain rod. My husband would then call him and he'd come back. I'd miss not having Zazu experience flight. I guess I'll try the walking up to the window with him, and maybe some 'stickies' on the windows to remind him. I have to say he hasn't done it again after that first time.

 

I also worry about him getting out. We live in Florida and in the winter doors and windows are often open.

 

Is it possible for a 'slight trim' so that he just can't get enough height to 'get away'?

[Tycos_mom]

yes or you can get screans for your wondows I have screans on every window in my house including the patio door they don't cost much at all and a worth it to keep your bird safe.

[judygram]

A "slight trim" won't solve the problem, they can still gain height outside if startled, especially if there is any breeze blowing, others here will attest to that fact. A bird that is clipped you would presume to not be able to fly but they can and do when something scares them into it.

 

I would go with putting screens on the windows you plan to open, that way you have the fresh air without the risk of your bird getting out.

[danmcq]

udannefitz wrote:

I guess I'll try the walking up to the window with him, and maybe some 'stickies' on the windows to remind him. I have to say he hasn't done it again after that first time.

 

They learn very quickly where windows are and what they are. They will stop and hover right in front of a window once they are accomplished flyer's.

 

Regarding wing clipping, they can still fly when frightened as Judy stated. I had a very well clipped conure fly off when startled by my dogs. It was a royal pain trying to get him out of a 70 foot tree once we finally found him several houses away. He was frightened, hungry and thirsty and of course could not fly down for rescue. He is now fully flighted.

 

Having confidence in wing clipping is one of the biggest reasons people watch in horror as their bird flies off....

[Talon]

I agree with Dan with Tycos-mom and JUdy. I would never clip my birds wings. I have windows all over my house, and have rarely seen them fly into them. MY 2 birds are out of their cages most of the day. You can hang things in the windows so they understand it won't take them outside.

They do need to learn to fly, both my birds were clipped when they came to me. I quickly allowed them to grow and learn to fly. Talon learned at a young age as we had her at 2 1/2 months old. Rikki, we got when she was 2, we have had her a year this week, and she finally has mastered flying, but still isn't quite as good as Talon yet.

I'm sure you can see that I am completely against clipping for many reasons which I won't get into, but I do understand that people have their own reasons for doing it. B)

[Acappella]

I agree that clipping can give an owner a false sense of security. You'd be surprised how far a clipped bird can fly when it is scared or frightened. Even if you clip your bird, please don't ever leave a window or door open.

 

My Dorian was never allowed to fledge, and as I've let his feather grow in, I've been witness to some scary looking and sounding crash landings. The worst he has ever injured himself is a scratch over an eye and a bit of a fright, soothed by a quick rescue from mom! He may never be poetry in flight, but he did manage his first ever hover-and-change-direction manouver a few days ago! I just wish he'd learned to fly when he was a baby.

 

You have to do what you feel is best to keep your baby safe. Karma to you for asking the questions and doing the research before making your decision.

[danmcq]

Acappella wrote:

but he did manage his first ever hover-and-change-direction manouver a few days ago! I just wish he'd learned to fly when he was a baby.

 

Wow!! Thats very good control that Dorian has gained.

 

It sounds to me like he is well on his way to be the glorious flighted Grey he was meant to be. :-)

[udannefitz]

Okay, thanks for everyone's advise on flying. Zazu is now 13 weeks... and flying and hovering to change direction. He still occassionally semi-crash lands in a door or table or a window, but he is trying to find a place to land and slows himself down. Landing is still not mastered. I have found that he mostly just wants to be up high, so I raised his play yard and he seems more content to stay on it.

 

He doesn't like being put back in his cage and still sticks his head way out of the bars. I am planning to add some wire mesh to the bars to prevent this. Since I have this great cage that served my smaller Amazon well for 17 years I figure eventually it won't be too big of an opening (1 1/4"). I am having a whole new experience with this grey, he is much more adventurous, inquisitive and mischievous than my Amazon ever was.

[Mistyparrot]

Zazu is still very young but he is clearly doing well with his flying. He will soon amaze you with his skill

Be careful with wire mesh as it may be zinc plated and zinc is toxic to parrots

 

Steve n Misty

[djzenjen]

When we brought Mischief home last year, we clipped her wings. I hated doing it, but knew it was best until she got used to her new home. (She was 8 when we adopted her.) I spent time with her every day taking her around the house, perch training her, and showing her where the glass was located. Now that she has learned the entire house, she is now flighted. If I had the ability to fly and someone kept taking it away from me, I'd be really mad and upset.

 

My vet told me that it is best to let the bird learn how to fly because they need to develop their coordination. I forgot what age, but she said they would not clip any bird's wings until they reached a certain age. Good luck!

[udannefitz]

My CAG Zazu is now 16 weeks. He is flying all over the place and just won't stay where he should. His cage is a no and his playyard is okay for a few minutes but then he's exploring every inch of the house. He has been flying upstairs and sitting on the railing and after several 'crashes' he has learned to fly back downstairs. I have to keep doors closed but he will find a lampshade, lampcord, golf bag, the rubber door seals, buttons on the sleeves of my blouses in my closet, whatever looks like he shouldn't be doing it. I hate to do it but I'm seriously considering getting him clipped.

[udannefitz]

Is there any way to train Zazu to stay on his play yard or perch? I have been trying to tell him 'no', and take him back to his play yard but he still keeps flying where he wants to. He loves to chew everything, especially electrical cords, lampshades, buttons on blouses, the rubber around the doors, etc. He has lots of toys, all kinds and I vary them but 'real life' items are much more interesting...????

[Dave007]

udannefitz

 

In your situation, flying has nothing to do with your problem. Clipping won't do anything except making it easier to get to electric wire andelectric sockets. You have choices. Either take out everything in the area he's living in or move him to another room where the risks are much less.

Another choice is to close off an area that has low risk with a louver door which has louvers on the top of the door down to the center. From the center to the floor it's solid. The louvers can be easily removed and replaced with a wiring screen that will keep him in the room, let you see him easily and if you wish, you can open the doors to let him out. Many people do this when they have other 4 legged pets which the birds are very frightened by. The animal walks by the door and the birds can't see him. As far as trining him to stay in one spot/spots, that's against the bird's nature.

PS--And no matter where the grey is, provide many pieces of wood that are both soft and hard. Greys are chewers and one of their favorite things is to chew on wood.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2009/08/08 21:41

[wildiesel]

I think that like with all things perspective here is important.That and the consideration of the nature of things.A bird's nature is to fly.It's part of its genetic memeory and physical structure. We think they need to "learn" to fly. I think more likely is a case of their having to remember.Flight is a complex set of events involving the relationship between, thrust, lift, drag,air flow/pressure to name a few. What I'm trying to say here is that flying is difficult so if a bird had to learn it the whole process would take far longer for the poor thing. The ability to fly is an instinct hardwired into the birds nature.Flying is so much a part of a bird that that is what it is the moment it is born. A creature that flies.

So. What to do. Two very important points have been made in previous posts. A bird who knows how to fly knows enough to not hurt itself, where to land, how to land etc,etc. So yes I would agree with the premise to only trim the wings after it has learned how to fly. Also to not take it for granted that a bird will not be able to fly away from a perceived danger with clipped wings. Many a bird has been lost this way.

Once again though perpsective is important and I am going to contradict myself here. If an owner lives in a dense urban area then it might be better to trim its wings until it is confident in its surroundings and knows enough to be able to come back to its caregiver when the need arises. But to acheive that state there must be a good rapport between bird and owner.It must also be confident in its surroundings.Lets face it. Our world with its noise,constant movement and unknown factors must be a pretty sacry place for any creature that is not used to it. I'm "used' to it but I still feel more comfortable in the bush that I do in big cities LOL.

Bottom line is there is no right or wrong 'per se'. It's what is right for the bird. Both from a safety and comfort point of view. What we feel when a bird is hurt or lost has nothing to do with it, even though it is personal. But it has everything to do with the bird itself. When we take on the responsability of sharing our world with another animal we must do what is right and better for them. But taking into account their very natures.

Sorry for being so long winded about this. But a case in point is our little guy. Modus was a wreck when we got him. He'd been through 5 owners that we knew of. He lived in a small cage, given the wrong diet, pulled his feathers out, was extremely agressive toward humans and shivering nervously all the time.In fact if we had not got him when we had he would be dead by now.

Six months down the line he is a different bird. Healthy, noisy, cheeky, happy but most importantly he's confident. Luckily I was able to understand his language, his needs and respond to them. During supper I still feed him from my mouth like a chick. However if that is what he needs at the moment to feel secure then so be it. He needs to feelsecure with us and himself.But it was a heartbreaking thing to have to "teach" a three year old african grey how to fly,or rather give it the confidence to be able to do so. To have to strenghten its wings and its self esteem.

Maybe I've got it all wrong.But I beleive that a major factor in bringing modus back to a healthy state was bringing back his ability to fly. In other words allowing him to express his nature, flight. Respecting his nature and allowing him to do what birds do.

However I am going to trim his wing though soon because in our present enviornment I see it as the sensible thing to do to ensure his safety and wellbeing for now. I hope I have conveyed my thoughts clearly as it's difficult for me to explain things clearly and briefly at the best of times.

[Mistyparrot]

Wildiesel what an inspiring story you tell about bringing Modus into an environment where he can thrive and be happy. Then you spoil it by saying you are going to clip him! Please don't. It is a very bad idea. Think how confused he will be.

 

Steve n Misty

[danmcq]

Wildiesel Wrote: "But it was a heartbreaking thing to have to "teach" a three year old african grey how to fly,or rather give it the confidence to be able to do so. To have to strenghten its wings and its self esteem.

"

 

It is more heartbreaking, to hear you are going to take everything you have taught him and let become his natural and god given right away now.

 

To restore and take away is cruel, in my opinion.

 

Modify any "Safety Issues" you think exist and allow him his freedom and right to be flighted. Normally, it is more dangerous to a bird to be non-flighted.

[wildiesel]

I think that I will be doing the right thing. It is a matter of context however.But as usual need to learn from the ideas of others.My thoughts are as follows.

It will be good for Modus to spend as much time with me as possible for the moment.Hence I am thinking of bringing him to work with me. I do not want to take the chance of him flying away just yet.It is a noisy enviornment for a bird; customising and modifying cars. Yes he feels safe with me and we have a good bond. But it is early days yet and we have not been together all that long in the scheme of things.

Limited flight will ensure his safety yet still give him his own sense of autonomy by being able to move around as he pleases. Within reason of course. I see no harm in this till he gets used to the sudden noises that occur in a workshop of this kind.

A clipped wing is a temporary measure and no sure thing yet. I have put a lot of thought into it, still am. Be assured there is no ego invlved here. I do not see Modus as being "my" bird. He is his own person. But he is my responsability now as well. He is learning to trust me and trust that my actions will not cause him harm.

We are currently living in Ireland. Definately not his 'natural' habitat. I have lived in Africa and was born there. If he goes walkabout he will not survive. Spending more time with me one on one will be good for him but in order for him to do so certain parameters need be met.

Your feedback on this is greatly appreciated.

[Dave007]

""""During supper I still feed him from my mouth like a chick. However if that is what he needs at the moment to feel secure then so be it. He needs to feel secure with us and himself.""""

 

 

Really?? Secure?

 

Get real! I got news for you. Your bird isn't a chick and it doesn't need you giving him food from your mouth to his to feel secure. He never told you that. You're just assuming that he loves you doing that and it's making him feel secure. That's unnatural and lots of people have been doing that and lots of people have paid the price in spades. Lips are so soft and nice and easy to bite through. At least those people came forward and said that they now realize that that sweet young cuddly grey decided to actually be a grey and bite.

 

A scenario--Maybe you also would be one of those people would will let your bird stay on your shoulder and let him bite your ear lobes and clothing and cheeks and bite jewelry and pull your hair a little simply because it's what he needs at the moment to make him feel happy and secure?

 

And another thing buddy---concerning that public opinion stuff in your other post----lots of public opinion has helped lots of unknowning people here to finally enjoy living with a bird in their house. Plus, you're not the only one who owns birds that come from many homes. I'd love to see how you would have handled 2 of my preowned greys. One of them would have had you for chop suey. As far as pluckers/chewers/ goes, I've been very familar with those kinds of birds. As a matter of fact I own one and he came from a great family who treated him well, fed him well, had plenty of toys and the end result was that he didn't have one feather on his body. You couldn't tell what species he was. He does have those feathers now and it took more than 3 years to get him back to looking like a real life african grey. Unfortunately, he can't fly like my other greys do but he's real happy trying to fly. And he's also an adult like the rest of my greys.

 

And as far as that wing clipping stuff, a huge amount of people now wanna know how long it's gonna take for those wings to grow back because they've seen the damage done. Study the personalities of greys and you'll see that there's a huge major difference in mentality between a clipped as opposed to an unclipped bird. They also wanna know how long it's gonna take for damaged wings to comeout evenly.