Biting - Not a behaviour seen in wild?

[danmcq]

I keep reading in various books, articles and comments by bird behaviorists that biting is a learned behaviour from their human owners.

 

I personally think that is a slap in the face to observed wild behaviour that is documented both in writing and even videos of late in several different parrot species. Macaws are seen fighting over a hole in a tree and sometimes one of their beaks gets ripped out. Nipping is seen in both sexual play and more so in move or I'm gonna nail you to one sitting next to them.

 

We see parrots of different species taking toes off, beaks ripped out etc.

 

I am just tired of seeing completely wrong information being promulgated in the web, in print and proclaimed by behaviourists as a Truth.

 

I want our forum members to know that if their parrot beaks them hard or even draws blood, they did not learn that natural behaviour from you. The beak and body language is the only means they have of signalling their intentions and protecting themselves.

 

Ok, now those that don't believe can blast me. :-)

[myafricanqueen]

You are right, Im sure of it!

[Janfromboone]

It makes sense. Tobie plays and bites when he plays. I have to let him know if he gets to rough for comfort.

[GorgASS]

my willis bit me yesterday. not hard enough to draw blood but hard enough that it left a mark and hurt. (my 3 year old scared him while i was petting him, not his fault) i told him no bite and showed him what he did and told him he had to be nice...i swear he knew what i was saying...his little face had the saddest 'i'm sorry' look, it was so cute! lol

[GorgASS]

my willis bit me yesterday. not hard enough to draw blood but hard enough that it left a mark and hurt. (my 3 year old scared him while i was petting him, not his fault) i told him no bite and showed him what he did and told him he had to be nice...i swear he knew what i was saying...his little face had the saddest 'i'm sorry' look, it was so cute! lol

[Tycos_mom]

The really do sense what your feeling and because you where hurting he felt that and saw the expression on your face He did understand in his own birdie way. Dan I totally agree with you a birds beak is the only thing that he can defend himself with you can never convince me that if a mom and dad bird had something getting to close to their nest that they aren't going to bite what ever it is and do their very best to tear the flesh right off it so the next time its going to think twice. I had a cat that I had to have its tail amputated because he tried to get to the baby's in a birds nest those bird all but tore that cats tail off it had absolutely no flesh left on it. Cost me 400. so there is no way that bird don't bite in the wild they most certainly do. If anything I thing we can actually turn a bird around so it no longer feels a need to bite.

[Storm_2007]

Its perposturous to think that we teach them to bite. Now enforcing the behaviour thats another story.

[SchroedersJen]

Anyone that says that birds dont bite in the wild can go to Fisherman's Warf in San Francisco and see all of the pidgeons missing toes. I doubt very much that that many birds were born missing them. This is a great thread. Thanks Dan!

[Luvparrots]

Great post Dan. We didn't teach them to protect and defend themselves by biting. But we as their loving owners must learn to read their body language, and know their personalities in order to prevent unintentional or misread signals with can result in painful bites!

[Jane08]

Ok I am going to go the other way here and say that biting is a learned behaviour. Might as well create some discussion, hehe.

 

I think this because biting is something that is not a part of a birds genetic history like for example nesting, bathing. When birds are in flocks of the same species they use body language, vocal screams which other birds look for to warn them off.

 

With us we usually miss all of these signals and the bird is forced into biting because we don't stop when we see these signals. We then reinforce this behaviour with our reaction so the bird learns ok if I bite they will stop, which we do. So based on this learned behaviour in future the bird will bite because past behaviour has told the bird that this is the only way to get the person to stop.

 

Now I am not saying that birds never ever bite in the wild but just that it is rare and would happen in extreme circumstances for example fighting over a nest. It is not a common behaviour like it is in captivity.<br><br>Post edited by: Jane08, at: 2009/06/24 09:27

[CarolandFamily]

Thank You Dan for this post, My babies do bite me at times when they play. I am also learning too that when they do Beak it's because that's there 3rd foot. When they twins are playing and don't want to go back to there cage I have my kids try and get them down, well when they do bite them my kids are afraid. I tell them don't be afraid and then I go and get them! Yeah they may do the nipping thing but it dosen't hurt me and I don't back down either.

 

So I do believe that they use there beaks to either defend themselves from bad things when they need to BUT I also believe that they use there beaks as a third foot as well.

[danmcq]

Jane08 wrote:

I think this because biting is something that is not a part of a birds genetic history like for example nesting, bathing. When birds are in flocks of the same species they use body language, vocal screams which other birds look for to warn them off.

 

GreYt response Jane and I agree with most of what you say.

 

The exception is, along with all the normal genetically wired functions of a bird you listed, the beak is for eating, feeling, preening, hanging on and protecting i.e. biting. Giving a hard bite or even a flesh shredding bite is the only way they know or have, outside of body language, to enforce what they are transmitting visually to us or the predator.

 

Now, the problem us humans have, is we must force some unnatural things on our birds. These are moving them , putting them in their cage, bathing them, giving meds and harnessing etc. when they do not want anything to do with it.

 

We also play with our birds and in most cases our hands are involved in that also. I admit, I get excited in some games Dayo and I play as much as he does. Our energy's feed each others as we hoop, woo hoo, watch out etc as we bat a ball with a bell in it, play with foot toys etc. My hand is always there in the action at some point and he sees it as a part of the available items to strike and I mean hard at times.

 

I created this problem and now I am having to change the way we play. If he strikes my hand instead of the toy, all play stops instantly. I do this everytime time now. he is very quickly understanding that when my hand or finger gets bit, the playing stops. I should have recognized this developing a long time ago when the bites were just nibbles or medium pressure grabs. So now I have to change the game rules.

 

This is where I believe you are saying it is a learned behavior from us humans. Everything we do in our actions with them is telling them whats ok and whats not. So I had told him the hand was part of the game.

 

Now biting due to not wanting to comply with our request is a completely different story and biting is going to happen most the time unless they figure out that resistance is futile when it's time for bed, being moved from a No-Go area etc.

 

Biting will also happen if you miss their body language and you just want to cuddle or have them step up for some unimportant reason. They tried to tell us, but we didn't get it. We do however always understand a good hard beaking. :-)

 

If we were birds and as keen on reading body language as they are, we would get bitten much less. However, even other birds either don't see it or just ignore it and thats when they get bitten.

 

Thats my general take on biting and I'm certain others have more to contribute as well.

 

I appreciate your starting a true dialogue on this topic Jane and Karma to you!! :-)<br><br>Post edited by: danmcq, at: 2009/06/24 15:49

[chimaysmommy]

I think that both sides of the debate make sense...My personal feeling about it, is that the act of biting IS a natural instinct that all birds have for both functional and survival reasons (i.e. foraging and self defense). However I think that there is a DISTINCT difference in the context of The Bite between wild and captive birds. To Dan's point, an example of this would be biting in response to something that the bird doesn't want to experience--if they're tired of an activity or their human is doing something that they don't want. Based on what little I know of grey behavior in the wild, I would assume that a similar situation would be dealt with in the wild vocally or via body language.

 

I like this topic!!

[Tycos_mom]

I like this topic also I think it will be very helpful for those who are new to birds to understand why their birds have started to bite and maybe help the biting to stop rather than deciding that their bird is just plain mean and rehoming it or locking it away forever so I'm giving you karma for this thread and if I could give you 10 I would great thread Dan thank you for posting it.

[Jane08]

I also like this topic and Dan I had the same problem with the playing and biting and got so upset that he would bite until I realised it was me not him.

 

Yes this is what I mean we create the problem like biting and then go why does he do that what a mean bird. Instead we should be asking what purpose did that behaviour serve and what am I doing to reinforce it.

 

I think we need to classify what is meant by biting, for me preening, foraging, feeling, eating is not biting. Yes it is using the beak but I don’t classify it as biting.

 

I don’t think there is any difference in the context of the bite, i.e. biting in response to something that you ask them to do but they don’t want to do. The first thing they will do is give you the body language to tell you this is not ok for me. You then ignore or don’t see the body language because you really need your bird to step up and then bam you get bit. So next time you ask your bird to step up he will bite again if he doesn’t want to step up because he learned from past experience that this is normal behaviour. It would be dealt with exactly the same way in the wild, body language or vocal first which all birds understand better than we do so it would not escalate into a bite as it often does in captivity. This is why I feel it is a captivity issue which is learned.

 

Every time I have an issue with Kea or Rangi I always ask myself is this a natural instinct (by natural instinct for example if I blow in your eyes your natural instinct is to close them) and if not then what are they getting out of this behaviour and what is it that I am doing to reinforce this and what can I change. I always look at myself first or environment factors.

[rbpittman]

I believe that we teach our greys to bite, or reinforce their natural defense mechanism, as Dan said above.

 

As a new grey owner (2 months) I have only been bitten a few times, and those only resulted in minor skin breaks. I truly believe I brought all of those on myself, as I allowed the play to get to rough. Dixie likes to hang upside down and get scritches on her head and neck, sometimes, laying in my hand, but she also likes to grab my fingers with her foot and pull them to her beak. I've either hit a feather she didn't like, she was done with play, or she was as excited as I was in play.

 

While I won't begin to say I have any expertise, I have taken the cue from many members here on stopping her biting behavior by first modifying my own, and learning to read her body language. The result has been that we still play, but we play on Dixie's schedule, not mine. When Dixie grabs my finger with her beak, if she clamps down too hard, I gently say don't bite, give her a stern "eye" look, and she either lets go, or relaxes her grip.

 

Thanks to Dan and all others who post to this forum, first for making grey owners aware of the truths, dispelling the myths, and helping those of us who are idiots for thinking we can control nature. By the way, Dixie came to me missing a toe, so I know she understands what it's like to be bitten.

--

Robin