braveheartdogs

Hi there, I haven't been on in a while so I thought I would pop in and say Hello. I ordered the Life with Alex movie as soon as it came out, but haven't watched it since I get so upset seeing greys since losing Ivan in September, but I watched it today. It was amazing. What he and Dr. Pepperberg did for science and animals and the field of training and behavior is amazing. It was great and made me miss my Ivan even more. Hope you are all doing well.

Hi everyone, I haven't been on in a while since I lost Ivan almost a month ago. It has been rough, I miss him a lot. In a moment of feeling very sad and down I called a bird shop I go to and asked if they happened to have any Pionus (a species I have been wanting for years) and they had a 7 year old female Dusky and so I brought her home. I named her Iris and she is a dolly. I keep finding different pictures of Ivan that I didn't know I had which is sometimes hard. Anyway, I wanted to show you what I got. There is an artist on Etsy who makes these feather pendants and I asked if they would consider making a custom one. They said yes and I sent a few of Ivan's feathers and they made these pendants for me. I only ordered one but they said that they couldn't bear to not use all his feathers so they made two of them for me. I love them and it makes me feel good to have a piece of him with me.

This story is so touching and sad. Joey is so lucky to have found you. He just needed someone who could be patient and not push him and let him do things on his time. Sweet boy.

Thank you so much everyone. It has been a really difficult couple of days. I have a bag of his feathers and spent yesterday afternoon and evening with my other birds, listening to the music I listened to with Ivan and watching videos of him. I am pretty wrecked. My father in law just called and I was, of course, crying and he said, "Well, I guess the best thing would be for you to get another one, right?" I thought, "Never, how could I?". I loved him so deeply, I can't imagine living with a grey that isn't him. He was so much work but I didn't mind because it was him. In the morning today when I am waking up, I lie in bed and listen to Ivan practice his speech. Whatever words or phrases he is working on, he will practice over and over in the mornings. This morning was so quiet, there was just nothing. I was lying in bed crying and I heard little Autumn say, "Yes!". It is all she can say. She started to say it over and over and then the others started to whistle. When I came in here, I let everyone out, something I haven't done in a year because they couldn't be out with Ivan. Nemo flew around the room and when I put up my arm, he landed on it, something he has never done before. I felt happy, until I recovered Ivan's leg band. As awful and as final as that makes things, maybe I can move a little forward. I thought I would share a few of his videos here since I am not sure any of you ever saw them.

I will no longer be visiting grey forums. I went out of town yesterday to spend some time with family. I got a call from my close friend who stays with my animals while I was there, she was frantic. Ivan had somehow managed to open his water bowl door and squeeze himself out of his cage. He flew into the living room where five of my dogs were. They killed him. I am brokenhearted and racked with guilt and regret that I couldn't keep him safe. I can't imagine not securing that door properly, but I can't imagine he could get it open if it had been. I spent the evening surrounded by my family and crying a lot. I came home today, and it is so much worse than I thought it would be, sitting here without him here holding a bag of his feathers and just feeling so much pain and guilt. I am so sorry my grey boy. Fly free. I am just so awfully sorry my boy. Thank you to everyone who welcomed me and was kind to me here.

Thanks you guys! I think he rather handsome myself:)

Here are some pictures from last night. Ivan is doing well, we are making lots of progress. He is now approaching the step up perch and touching it with his beak. I love shaping! Our online consult with Lara Joseph is in about an hour so I am hoping to get even more insight! [/img] [/img] [/img]

Oh, I am so glad! I have a swing just like that and that is actually the only thing Ivan has ever successfully stepped up onto. Still, I wanted to make one that had a very definite handle so I could easily hold it from different angles. I am thinking that he is now ready to start really working on stepping onto something, I just had to play with what that would be. I am just not willing to pressure him and force him with something that makes him uncomfortable, so I think that my "creation" will work great! I can't wait to hear how your training goes.

I am guessing that mating with your head wasn't the incompatible behavior you were hoping for! LOL! Does he only bite fingers? Thanks! Me too!

So, I have decided that I REALLY have to work on Ivan's stick training. I started a while back, but halfheartedly, partly because I know he really hated the stick, a long perch. I ended up buying a long, rope Booda perch, bent it, not quite in half, so the two ends make a handle (which I duct taped) and the other end where it bends makes an oval kind of. He was out of his cage today and I worked on it with him some. Just holding it up, waiting a moment, then moving it away, etc. Right now he is in his cage and I did a few reps of lifting the perch in my hand and when he looked at it and didn't move away, giving a treat. I did that a few times. Then, I held it closer so he could reach it and he very gently opened his beak on it, for which I marked it and gave him a very high value treat! So excited!

I didn't say six months was long for behavior modification, I said six months is a long time for a bird to be actively practicing biting. I do behavior modification and training for a living and really building behavior does not take long at all, that is why building alternate behaviors to the ones we don't like is the way I do it. I could spend months or years trying to make a behavior go away, when simply training something incompatible that can be immediately reinforced and supported can happen pretty quickly and it strengthens the relationship while you do it. Whatever an animal does is what they get good at, so I don't want them to practice behavior that I don't like. Frankly, I am okay waiting months or even years if it means that my animals don't feel so defensive that they need to bite me. It's just a difference of opinion, my method of choice is to avoid doing things that trigger bites or unwanted behavior while I train other incompatible behaviors. By the way, I think it is great that what you have done worked for you and your family, that is awesome. I'm just offering another way of doing things that is working for me! Great discussion!

Yikes! Six months is a long time for biting to be practiced! I don't want him to get good at that behavior! I am working hard to read Ivan's body language, avoiding doing anything that will trigger bites, reinforcing the behavior of stepping up with head up (he can't bite if is head is up). Thanks again for the feedback!

Nice video! It inspired me to do more training with Ivan. I have already thought about teaching him to turn. Thanks. Yes, I am very familiar with desensitization and counter conditioning and also shaping. I am also 100% committed to allowing the animal to have choice and be able to choose. I have not been to the Natural Encounters training but I have seen Steve Martin lecture a few times and he shared some very cool video. The target stick training is going well. He seems to enjoy that training but I feel like he was just not getting comfortable with the perch stick, which is I why I made one that I think (hope) he will be more comfortable with.

Hi there, Just a little update about Ivan. Yesterday, I didn't hold him at all. His cage is in my home office, with four others parrots in separate cages and I am in this room a lot, so even though no handling, he was near me a lot. I think the day off was good for us! I started a journal. When I work with clients with dogs with behavior problems I recommend that they keep a journal and partly it is just because it helps them to recognize progress when they have to write it down. This will help me keep track and also will help me recognize other things in the environment which contribute to good and bad days. This morning Ivan stepped up from his cage for a 1/2 a grape. He wanted on his stand where he ate it. Then he was asking to step up. When I turned around in my chair he was on the bottom of the stand. I stepped him up and then gave him a piece of cashew. He hung out on me getting scratches and seeming very relaxed and comfortable. Then, I put him on his cage perch and gave him the other 1/2 grape. Then he got a good shower, which he loves. Overall, a very good morning. I also used a long rope perch and duct taped it to make a hand held perch. So, I will do some work on getting him comfortable with that. I am very encouraged this morning!

Thanks! That is my goal too, working together to find a way that we can both be happy. Like I said, our relationship is strained so the last thing I want to do is start punishing him. Each time Ivan bit, he stepped up first and then bit me. Twice I was sitting down. The bites really seemed to be that he was frustrated. I feel that if he had been on a perch he would have bitten the perch.

What a great post to read. I am currently going through a challenging time with my TAG Ivan, who I have had just a year. It has been a year and so much of the time he has seemed so relax and happy and calm, most of the time actually. It is hard to keep in mind that he may not feel settled yet. As far as I know, he had one home and then went to a rescue after he because aggressive in his cage which frightened the owner. That is when he was offered to me from the rescuer as she knew I had lost my old WFA the month before. It sounds like Rikki was so lucky to have found you and that you were committed to her.

Thank you Talon:)

Thank you for the suggestion Nancy. I am trying not to reinforce biting, but I am not willing to try to punish it out. I prefer to train an alternate behavior, so that is my plan. Even if I wanted to use negative punishment (time outs), it would be very difficult to effectively time that consequence for it to be meaningful to him. At this point, I can't afford anything that could be damaging to our relationship. I don't believe that Ivan only understands biting as he has bitten only 3 times in one year. In that time there has been 100s and 100s of successful steps ups, step downs and interactions with no biting, so he does know other things.

Thank you so much for your thoughts. I adopted him from a rescue who took him from someone who was afraid of him because of him being aggressive in his cage. I am confident that he has a huge reinforcement history of biting. I have a perch on his door so I do not put my hand inside. I always ask him if he would like to come out and then he comes out onto the door perch which is where I step him up from. No bites have happened from there, although warnings have. I love the idea of teaching him to enter and exit his cage on cue. I have been working on target stick training him. He is doing well, but I went to working on it with him in his cage and sometimes he aggressively bites the target stick which I reinforce anyway (kind of like what Steve Martin did with the lion who would attack the target). To be honest, I hate to go hands off because there is so much more non biting than there is biting, but on the other hand, I do not want him to practice the biting. The bites have been off of my lap and then two off of the playstand. Yesterday, I started to ask him to come down to the lowest perch on the playstand before I would step him up to change the picture for him and get him thinking and training and responding before asking for hte step up. I started a journal for other things about him but I can't find it!!! I am going to do that today and start a new one!

Hi there, Ivan, my TAG is a rehome that I adopted last September. So, he has been here exactly a year. He was 4 years old when I adopted him, so his now 5. He eats a good diet with lots of variety. He comes out daily and is in a room with 4 other parrots (not greys) and is offered enrichment and mental stimulation. Over the past year our relationship has really grown, I have become comfortable and relaxed with him, maybe too much so:( Over the past month or so he has bitten me three times. The first time he was on my lap getting scratches in the morning. After a little while, I asked him to step up onto my arm and he bit me. It hurt but I didn't not react very much. After he let go, I stepped him off. It seemed clear to me that he was frustrated with having been stepped up. I made it a point to be even more thoughtful than I am about his body language. I went back to reinforcing every step up with a food reinforcer. The second incident happened a couple of weeks ago. Ivan was out on his playstand for quite a while. I was working on my website and was quite stressed out. I went to step him up and he did and then like last time, he bit me. This time was worse, more bites, more painful. I kind of waited and then, I went to his cage and tried to sort of get him in there which he did, but it wasn't smooth or pretty. When I sat down to look at all the variables and what could have contributed to the bite I realized that I was very stressed and that it was about 1 1/2 hours past his bedtime. I would be lying if I said I didn't feel a little panic that now we had two bites and that it is becoming a habit. Since that second bite much of my confidence is gone:( I do not trust Ivan and he doesn't trust me. I am unsteady and untrustworthy:( Someone suggest wearing a sweatshirt when I hold him, which I started doing and gave me a little more confidence, until today, when he bit me through the sweatshirt. I think I may have pressured him a little bit thinking that moving away made him feel less secure. Just a little more background. He always steps up and then bites. I am a professional dog trainer and behavior consultant and am very into behavior modification and looking at things from that standpoint, in other words, what happened just before, what happened just after, what could have reinforced it, etc. I have tried to peel this apart to make sure that I do not create situations in which Ivan feels the need to bite. I am very respectful, careful and thoughtful about his body language. I always ask "you wanna step up?" I don't force him. He is not stick trained, he is fearful of sticks, I have been working on it, but he is afraid. I am trying to come up with a perch that he will be comfortable with that he can step onto, like a rope perch. I love Ivan very much. I do not resent him for the bites. That said, I am very sad about where things stand. I have a phone/online consult set up for this coming week with Lara Joseph in which I will get her help to develop a training/behavior mod plan. I am excited about that. I am also currently enrolled in Susan Friedman's LLA course which I am sure will give me even more insight. I hope that some of you may have some insight. Thank you.

Aw, Virgil is so handsome. I think his condition looks really great! My grey loves to be misted. I use Rain or just water from a bottle that has a fine mist. He will go to the top of his cage and hang upside down.

I have a TAG, not a CAG, but he gets a fresh mash mix in the morning, 4 nutriberries in the afternoon and has Zupreem pellets in his cage at all times. I sometimes also offer a dry mix in place of the mash.

Ivan has Zupreem Nutblend pellets in his cage at all times. Each morning he gets a bowl of fresh mash which has Goldenfeast, brown rice and fresh veggies. In the afternoon he usually gets a dry mix or a veggie spear hung in his cage to munch on:)

Thanks guys, I am sure I will keep him. Yes, I have other birds, a lot of other birds actually, but only a few of them are hands on. Most of them are rehomes and most of them I do not handle.

Yeah right! LOL