babysweet

Just wanted to thank everyone here for your support. Jakob has come a LONG way in a short time. From a bird who couldn't hear a human voice without thrashing about his cage as if his very life depended on it to a CAG who last night climbed down the front of his cage, walked across the floor and begged to be cuddled. With a lot of coaxing and practice, of course, but if you had told me a few weeks ago that this is where we would be, I would have frankly questioned your sanity. Luckily, my days are wide open - so Jakob has had hours and hours of one on one attention and focus. We're working on building trust and instilling some minor training skills. As I mentioned before, you can keep up with Jakob's story on our blog. There's just too many forums to post every update to. Thanks again, to everyone. )

After much debate, I have decided not to share the details of Jakob's acquisition. I've determined that while his former caregivers really did want to help him, they knew less than nothing and were progressively making him worse. This was not intentional, it was ignorance. The important thing is that he's home and his recovery can begin. Between everything I'm quite simply exhausted, but if you want to read about our last few days, we've started a blog at http://jakobsjourney.wordpress.com We post to several grey boards, dog boards, and everywhere in between and rather than repeat his daily stories over and over I decided that a blog was the best way to cover all bases. Excuse me, cause I'm not that much of a writer. But I'll do my best to chronicle our daily adventures. Thanks again soooooo much to everyone here for their honesty and support. I will continue to be part of the forums, and will of course post any questions or issues here, but his daily workings will go only to the blog. And a biiiiiiiig thanks from Jakob. Who's scared, unsure, frightened, panicky and at times, terrified. But he's home, and he's safe. And part of that is because of all of you. xoxoxo

Jakob is home!! I have second degree bites in my tongue, but he's home! (from me... lol... not Jakob) I'll post the whole thing tomorrow, I'm exhausted. Thank you again for all your support!

Oh, don't I know it. When we pick up a surrendered pet for rescue, I send my husband. I can't go. I just can't control myself when I get there and see how bad things really are. I also have an issue with "experts." I don't mean people who offer their opinion based on their experiences and their research - I have an issue with people presenting total BS as fact. I worked at a pet supply store for five years. Greatest job of all time, but to keep our cool with "those" customers (like the one who told me that because her cat was an - insert cat breed here - that it needed more grain in its diet. Cause only domesticated cats eat meat, and her breed was a "wild" breed) we kept a log of the stupidest things we've ever heard people say. And there were hundreds of occasions where I would simply give a look to one of my co-workers and just walk away. They'd jump in and take over, knowing I was about to unleash on someone for being an idiot. This is where my husband is so great. He can totally look a complete "expert" in the face and go along with every word - with a smile. We make a good team. ;o) Needless to say, I had to rewrite my email to Jakob's people several times. My outrage tends to express itself either directly or dripping with sarcasm. It's not pretty, but it's effective if I'm trying to make a point. About a dozen rewrites were necessary to remove all traces of my anger, although I did express my frustration (as diplomatically as is possible, for me) that we had been placed on this roller coaster. The decision to commit to Jakob was not one we took lightly. And to have it presented to us, and taken away, over and over has been emotionally exhausting. I wish I could post Pamela's email here, let me just say that she was totally, 100% supportive of me and what Jakob needed, and that he was not a commodity. She has proven herself to me already to be a straight shooter, a very direct communicator and a no-nonsense personality. I'm very impressed by that, and would recommend her services to anyone on this board (or elsewhere) who may be in need of professional advice. To have that decision bounced around in front of us by Jakob's caregivers, for them to be so flippant towards us... it's just one more log on the fire, you know? It'll take a lot on Sunday to push me over the edge, but I'll do whatever I can to leave with a smile on my face and a guarantee of Jakob's adoption.

Thanks all, but once again it seems my celebration has been premature. After receiving an email that literally said "when would you like to pick him up" and not much more, I received another that they weren't really sure after all. I've consulted with Pamela Clark - who they then called and harassed, making me look like a total arse to Pamela - and she agrees that these people do not know what they are doing and apparently she was the driving force behind the initial change of heart. Pamela felt that not only does his caregiver not have the abilities or knowledge to deal with Jakob, but she may actually be making him worse, and apparently didn't hesitate to tell her that either - btw for those of you who don't know yet, Pamela Clark is absolutely unbelievably amazing. So now they've requested a meeting with us on Sunday. Supposedly to "school" me on parrot behaviour. After Pamela's email, this infuriates me even more. The immediate plan is to go out there, see what they have to say, and hopefully bring Jakob home on the 23rd. However, I'm so unbelievably frustrated with the woman involved, I don't know if I can keep my comments to myself while I'm there. Thanks to all the comments about the perches up high. All I have to say is "duh." I'm sure this would have come to me as I was putting them up... I think it may be just my emotional issues with what's going on right now that wouldn't allow me to see that mistake immediately. We've chosen some cat carriers to put up high instead, modified with little perches in them. I was going with the no-cage approach, but it was suggested to me by the caregiver who is now a CONFIRMED ignoramus when it comes to parrot behaviour. Let's just say we're starting at square one again. Keep your fingers crossed, all of you. And let me say it again - Pamela Clark rocks.

No light thus far. I'm waiting until I actually have Jakob in my hands before I contact his former owner - or at least attempt to, there's some debate about whether that information will be released to me. I'm just trying hard at the moment - both to be totally, 100% prepared for his arrival (my yearly vacation is also my yearly recharge, so post-vacation is a great time to start working with him as my own baggage will be lightened), and to not get too excited. After everything we've been through, I wouldn't be surprised to suddenly learn the situation has changed. Until he's home I won't relax totally. But until then, I'll be working on being as ready as possible.

Thanks to everyone. Interesting information regarding eye pinning. So it turns out that while eye pinning has been associated with pretty much every emotion a grey is capable of, it has been determined that it is NOT associated with fear. This is how afraid Jakob is. In almost an hour of sitting with him and observing him, I did not see him pin his eyes even a single time. Since I had never seen this from a grey before (or any other parrot, for that matter... with my amazons pinned pupils basically meant "I'm awake" - it was only the pinning coupled with other physical cues that really told the story) I assumed there must be something physiological. Turns out it's pure, unadulterated fear. So that's good news and bad news. Means we're no closer to answer, but it does mean that I know pretty much 100% that all we're dealing with is fear/phobia. Also good news/bad news, fear/phobia is almost always fixable - but it's one of the longest treatments in behavioural modification. That's where we stand. Jakob is a bird who, if my limited observation means anything, feels literally nothing but fear. My heart breaks and I just can not wait to get him home. Wish we weren't going away, but we can't miss the weekend and we need time to get Jakob's stuff together anyways. Another interesting thought. Read a post about a fearful bird (was it one of yours, Jayd?) that was brought home and put on the tallest perches possible to build his confidence. Jakob's caregiver (whose bird behaviour knowledge is questionable) says to put him on low perches - nothing about 4' or so, and certainly not above eye level. We've generally used this rule with most of our birds, particularly the Amazons who can be quite aggressive with little provocation - and a high perch is usually enough to elicit a higher level of aggression - but this bird seems to contain no aggression whatsoever. He's terrified. If raising his perches and allowing him to perch near the ceiling makes him comfortable, or makes him feel "big" and proud and dominant... isn't that what he needs? Obviously time must be spent one on one, but when he's hanging out on his own, why not let him get as high as he wants if it makes him feel safer? Suggestions?

A few things have happened since I last posted. About a day after hearing from Pamela and her tearing me a new one (deserved, admittedly) Jeff and I talked about Jakob and decided that his caregiver was not someone we wanted to deal with any longer. A while later, my husband got a phone call, asking me to call them back. I strongly prefer to do EVERYTHING I can via email so that there is always a paper trail. We take in special needs dogs, and it's not uncommon for people to read the update of their surrendered dog who has now been rehabbed and suddenly they claim that we were supposed to just make the dog better and then give it back. Email prevents this from happening, as I can always whip out the one where the owner has described all of the behavioural issues and their begging me to take their pet and make it "not their problem". Anywho, I didn't call them back. We only have one phone in the house right now (we run on cells only and my own got eaten by a dog - awaiting a replacement... and yes, it happens often) and so I emailed them and told them that they were welcome to discuss the situation with my husband (we're a team after all, and we're on the same page) or they could email me quite easily. About half an hour ago I got an email from Jakob's caregivers asking when I would like to come and pick him up. I'm stunned, shocked... well, you can imagine. My initial reaction was to get in the car, drive there immediately and get him. However, we have a vacation planned for the weekend of the 21st. We vacation once a year, every year for the last seven years. We gather up all the dogs and drive to Peterborough to stay with a friend - amongst about a dozen different dog loving families and a few dozen dogs. It's an amazing experience, and we can't not go for reasons I can explain and reasons I can't... but regardless, we would be leaving that weekend. My neighbour, who has always watched my dogs and exotics when we leave, offered to do whatever it took to make Jakob comfortable while we were gone, but I just couldn't think of a way to do it that wouldn't totally send this bird off the edge. Even having her stay here in our home while we were gone, a new person so suddenly after the move could set us back - and that's the last thing we want. So I've emailed them and asked them to keep him until the monday we return. We're going to come back early, likely Sunday afternoon, pick up Jakob and the two of us can spend the day observing him (if they agree to keep him until then). This also gives us time to completely construct Jakob's living area from the ground up. What I've decided is to give him our largest cage (the largest that EZCage makes, the playtop) and remove the front door. We've also decided to build him a nest box both inside and outside of his cage. Food and water will be both as well, as will toys although to my knowledge he has never played. All of my birds we've ever had through the house have learned their colours at least, plus whatever behaviours they seem to enjoy are put on cue. It will be interesting to see what it is that creates the breakthrough that says "toys are FUN!". So, there it is. As it stands right now, Jakob will be with us by the 23rd. Of course, I'm still hesitant... the whole situation has been so volatile that things could change at any moment. Fingers and wings crossed that between now and then things stay calm, and the end result is Jakob gets his new home. And of course, as always, comments/questions/suggestions/complaints welcome. ;O)

Well, Jakob will not be entering our family. Turns out that after forwarding Pamela's comments to Jakob's caregivers, they gave her a phone call and reamed her out for being judgmental. This woman can talk for hours about the same subject and only say one thing just fifty different ways (customary for people who like to talk about something but know little about the subject). (*edited to add that just in case of possible confusion, Pamela is NOT the long winded one of the two women being discussed, and there is little doubt she knows just about all there is to know on the subject*) Surprise, surprise, Pamela was less than impressed. They made it sound as if I had forwarded the entire unedited email, which I did not, and said who else knows what. I'd be surprised in the future when I do need a bird behaviourist if Pamela would even take me on as a client at this point. And of course, not a word from Jakob's caregivers, because why deal with me directly when you can go around me, right? Also harder to control the conversation when the other party actually knows the true details. We are extremely saddened by this turn of events, and I do take full blame for it. Had I handled the situation differently, perhaps we would have succeeded. Thank you all for your welcome, your help, your brainstorming, your criticism and your cheerleading. It was ALL helpful. Take care.

Sorry about skipping that link - somehow my brain got stuck on the blind comment, and for some reason I thought the post was for blind parrots. That'll happen after a few dozen hours of reading posts, books and emails. ;O)

I understand the positions you've all put forward. I do. Would I do just about anything to help Jakob? Yes I would. But that does not include bending my moral values. I've discovered that this woman is not the original breeder. She took him in for free with the intention of re-selling him. Simple as that. She does this frequently, from what I can see. I can not support this. This bird should have gone directly to a rescue group who could deal with his issues and find him a new home. The breeder took him in for resale, essentially. After contacting Barbara Heidenreich (and the breeder accusing me of lying about it) she advised me on a few details, but mainly suggested that I contact Pamela Clark (please, any references for this woman, pro or con, are very very welcome). I explained the situation to Pamela, and she agreed with me that this is not a "transaction" and should not be treated as such. She also agreed with me that massive amounts of veterinary and behavioural specialist opinion is going to be required, and will likely not be free. I have forwarded the email to Jakob's caretakers, and have yet to receive a response. The good news is that Pamela had some incredible insight into Jakob's potential issues, what his goals should be and has agreed to consult with me about him if he does make the move to our family. "I have consulted on a large number of cases with phobic Greys, and have been interested in the fact that the majority of them begin to show this behavior at the age of 1.5 years. There must be something developmentally at that age that predisposes them to developing this problem, but I don't have any idea what that might be. However, there is never just one incident that causes the problem, do Jakob was likely well on the way to developing this level of distress and this one incident just pushed him over the edge." They did mention that Jakob's former owner did state the bird had always had a level of fear from the moment he was purchased. To me, this suggests that this is a long term issue meaning and even longer rehabilitation. It's good news in that we have a bit more insight now though. I will keep you all posted on whether I receive another contact from Jakob's caregivers. So far they have been silent since our last telephone conversation, but perhaps I will get a response to the email I forwarded yesterday. Thank you all for your opinions, suggestions, and your honesty.

I wasn't suggesting that Jakob was a problem, but certainly this is not a saleable animal. What this boils down to for me is values. I can't support this. It's like seeing a special needs puppy in the pet store (or any puppy!) and buying it because you've fallen in love with it. That doesn't solve the problem that you've also just ensured another puppy the same fate by freeing up space cage, and ensuring that those parents will likely continue to be bred because people are still foolish enough to buy the puppies, deformed or not. I just can't support that behaviour.

Jayd - what bothers you, the woman, or my reaction? Chelsea - thank you for your support. Don't get me wrong, I have an issue with anyone who emails me and expects me to drop my adoption fee simply because they're providing an animal a home, the "something for nothing" crowd. But this is more of a "giant problem with a price tag" at least from my perspective. Maybe I wouldn't be so sensitive if I hadn't removed fees myself in the past before. We've placed puppies with deformed legs, dogs with no bladder control, older dogs and dogs with severe behaviour issues at no cost to the family involved. Every one costs us money - more money than we have, frankly. But if that family is selfless enough to knowingly deal with these issues just to give this animal a chance at a loving life, my conscience just will not let me charge an adoption fee. But maybe I'm biased, and so I'm reading the situation wrong.

Thank you so much tarm - just the information I needed, and I agree that living condition is first and foremost. Let's just see what works out with this "breeder". <sigh>

Thank you so much for your interpretation to what happened. That sounds perfectly plausible, and while knowing the real story would be optimal, this helps me to foresee future issues. I agree with the cage free attempt, however the cost of converting a room for Jakob is going to be extensive... and the woman who currently has him (who I just found out was not his original breeder, but rather just someone who took the bird in) is asking $500 for him. I thought for sure they would waive the fee when they realized what kind of placement was available here (we run a dog rescue and special needs dogs are always advertised with adoption fees, but frequently are they enforced for obvious reasons). I refuse to let this woman profit from Jakob. I can't take him unless she waives the fee, and she's really being difficult - telling me that he's the worst she's ever seen, and how patience and consistency is what will cure him, not expensive vets and behaviourists - and then proceeds to tell me that in 8 months of patience and consistency he's not improved. I'm frustrated. I want to know Jakob, and I *think* I know how (or at least know that we could figure it out) and she's upset that she won't recoup the maintenance costs for the bird. They breed about a dozen species - ranging from $150-1400. They have about four or five dozen babies at any time. This is not an issue of money. Sorry... frustrated.

Thanks, GoDiego. It's not that they *couldn't* pin, it's just that they *weren't* pinning. For a bird experiencing the range of emotions I know that this one was, that just doesn't strike me as normal. The vet didn't mention it, or at least that information was never passed on to me. Thanks for the links, I'll check them out.

And just before anyone suggests the google, I've been everywhere. I've always found the best information comes from the people who live with species in question on a daily basis, hence my choice of research vehicle.

I agree with you completely Jayd. But I have to admit that on a grey forum I was hoping for a bit more... well, information. "Take it slow" is good advice to any rescuer of any animal, but what I'm interested in is behavioural modification technique, and what approach/plan is going to get this bird back on his feet? Details need to be arranged, such as where does the bird sleep? Can you use natural supplements with birds? What should the bird sleep in? Are there any specific calming behaviours greys use that I should be aware of? Thanks anyways for all of your advice - everyone who replied. Perhaps this is not the correct forum for these inquiries.

Dave, while I appreciate your take on the situation, I would suggest that you fully read and comprehend each post prior to hitting reply. Several times you have given me information not even remotely related to the situation at hand, and the inquiries that I have posed have gone unanswered and replaced with what seems like form letter responses. I've rehabbed birds before. From budgies to Amazons, we've handled dozens of species. I've been a dog trainer for 12 years. I realize that caution, patience and compassion are the recipe here. Really? One would assume that in order to make any kind of suggestions regarding the behavioural modification techniques necessary to rehabilitate this bird that this is pretty pertinent information, no? I mean, if you're as serious as you sound and as knowledgeable as you say you are... after all, I don't know you either.

I agree completely. The woman who has him now has been working for 8 months with little to no progress. I've rehabbed many birds - but they've all been aggressive, and predictable as far as birds go. This one is quite the mystery.

As I mentioned, Dave, the bird does not pluck. He doesn't self mutilate at all. That's part of what's making me really wonder about him... all that stress on a grey and it doesn't pluck? Makes no sense to me. The feathers are destroyed because of his lack of concern for his own safety when he thrashes himself around his cage. I know no details about the time that the owner was away. I'm hoping to get the former owner's contact information so that I can nail down the details. We haven't agreed to take him yet, I'm taking my husband to meet him tomorrow. I just wanted to bounce as many ideas as possible around before we agree to anything or so that at least I can make a game plan for his rehab should we bring him home. I agree, Dave, that brain damage *may* be involved. His eye movement was not what I'm used to... I'm not terribly familiar with greys (been around tons, but never lived with one) Amazons are more my specialty, but the movement was just.... off. I'll post video if we bring him home. Sorry, can't remember who suggested he was blind, but he's most definitely not. I was quite focused on his vision due to the odd movement I described. Does anyone know of any natural supplements that can be safely used for birds? Generally with my dog cases, diet, supplements and natural treatments play a big role. I'd like to be working with my full toolbox, but won't be using anything without reassurances of safety. Thanks everyone who has replied, and who has any comments or suggestions about this poor little character. Who knows, I may be posting tomorrow that he's home. Another question - due to his cage concerns, I was considering sleeping him in a modified PetMate KennelMate. The plastic sides and top would prevent more feathers from being broken, and he may feel more protected. He doesn't seem to do the scream and freak out thing when out on his stand, so the parrot stand downstairs can be his home during the day. Any thoughts? I do have a giant Macaw sized cage (the largest of the EZCare cages) that I would like to use, but I'm concerned for his safety.

I completely disagree. There are four quadrants to behaviour, and punishment makes up half of them. EVERY species on earth learns through two channels - punishment and reward. Dominance is reality. Watching individuals sort out dominance hierarchy pretty much eradicates the notion that parrots don't use punishment on their very own. This is not to say that I believe that punishment is the best choice in all (or any) situation, but to completely deny half of learning theory as we know it is close minded to say the least. My surprise, I suppose, is that owners of parrots can watch their very own fids punish them with a bite when they feel their owners have stepped out of line, but laddering is considered "abuse". Now, using "punishment" techniques with proper and full instruction to apply towards the treatment of a specific concern can be very effective. In others, it can be detrimental. This is why it's best to have a specialist on hand when dealing with issues that require such strong treatments.

Ok, so a little background. I do dog and parrot rescue. Dog for about five years now, parrot for about two - although I've been a trainer for 12 years. Recently I heard about this African Grey named Jakob. Jakob was adopted soon after weaning from a respectable breeder (one I have used before to purchase a Green Cheek Conure as well as a Grey Head Parrot). Everything was going great, Jakob was starting to talk, he was well bonded with his family. Then his dad left for a few days. I'm unsure of the details (care during vacation for example) but when he returned home, he describes the cage as if a "bomb went off." Most of Jakob's feathers were broken, blood was everywhere - all over the cage, the walls... even his extra large ceramic dishes were tossed to the floor - not an easy feat, even for a grey. Soon after when Jakob's full extent of his trauma became apparent, Jakob's dad returned him to the breeder. After eight months with the breeder, little progress has been made. Jakob has a cage in a room upstairs with a few other cages (two maybe?). Generally during the day Jakob is out on his stand and has few problems aside from his complete and utterly apparent terror. When he is in his cage and his caregiver is downstairs, he will suddenly scream bloody murder and throw himself to the bottom of the cage. His caregiver does not respond (not wanting to reinforce the behaviour) and some days he'll do it 1-4 times, other days not at all. When on his stand, he is very anxious about being approached. He will allow himself to be picked up, and has not bitten anyone to the point of blood - nothing short of a miracle in a bird this traumatized. He does not pluck (I know, wth... a grey that doesn't pluck) but all of his feathers are destroyed and he looks like a baby. If you go to pick him up and he doesn't want to be picked up, he will throw himself backwards onto the floor with no concern for his own safety - it is pure terror. Oddly enough, his eyes don't seem to pin the way that I'm used to seeing in a grey's face. My fear is that he's suffered some kind of head trauma and is now suffering from epilepsy (can birds get epilepsy? My true specialty is dogs). He's seen a veterinarian, and the vet couldn't find any medical reason for his issues. However, he did put him on a sedative (sorry, no details) that the caregiver said was $100 a bottle. He did improve after dosing, but dosing requires toweling and using a syringe to medicate him. I think this equates to paying one credit card bill with another credit card. I have not agreed to take him. We will be going out tomorrow to visit Jakob again (my husband has never met him) and to make a decision. I was hoping that someone (anyone!) has any ideas as far as what could have caused this, how to solve the issues, or just a helpful comment. I need help. Jakob needs help. He's been confined to a tiny cage for sleeping so that when he throws himself off his perch he has less distance to fall down and cause injury. The rest of his day is spent on his stand, constantly looking around for danger. This is no way to live, and I want to help him. Suggestions? By the way of an introduction, let me just say that I'm an open book. I say what I think, do what I think is right, and encourage others to do the same. With that being said, I take criticism as well as I take compliments, so by all means if your opinion is less than positive do not hold back. I want all opinions, the good, the bad and the ugly.