particle77

first, I want to clarify that I'm not saying the example that I gave is accurate, I'm just indicating that its possible, and that it would take genetic analysis, to prove one way or the other. I was only taking issue with the definitive no that you gave regarding the possability that genes for tails with more red in them may have been introduced to TAGs from interbreeding in the past with CAGs. They are a subspecies, which means that they should still be capable of interbreeding in the wild, and that they share a common ancestry(its possible that they have diverged to the point where this isn't really possible, and just weren't classified as seperate species, just as some species that are still capable of interbreeding are classified as seperate). This means interbreeding would have been more common in the past, and would have become less common over time, as the two groups diverged. The genes for the red tail may have been present in the common ancestors of all CAGs/TAGs, and just selective bred out of TAGs over many generations of evolution to the point were they are fairly uncommon, in which case your assertion that its unrelated to any CAG ancestry would be correct. but I believe the scenario I posited is also possible. If there were any studies providing evidence one way or the other I'd be interested in reading it. On a side note Greywing is definitely correct that diet can also impact feather color(in particular access to caratinoids will increase red pigmentation), but I was more interested in the genetic component.

Dave007 wrote: Out of curiosity how can you be sure of this? For example: Even if wild CAGs and TAGs never interbreed now, they must have at one time. Perhaps some of the genes for a bright red tail were then introduced into the Timneh population from such a pairing.

Definitely redder than the other Timnehs that I've seen. CAGs and TAGs are still one species though so it stands to reason that just as there is overlap in size for the two subspecies the tail color could also vary. Ana Grey may even have a CAG somewhere not too far up her family tree.

Personally I would need to know someone pretty well(from meeting face to face) to trust them with Earl. However one thing that has crossed my mind, is the possibility of setting up play dates in the park, during better whether. I think it would be cool if members within the same city could arrange to meet some warm afternoon and let there Greys meet. That would possibly facilitate the getting to know other Grey owners, which might allow you to meet a good sitter. The only issue being that the organizer for each city would have to be collecting health certificates, to ensure nobody brings an ill parrot. Not sure how many places would have enough active members though. Theres actually a CAG in the window of an Apartment that Earl and I regularly walk past. I've always wondered if the owner reads this forum .

Hey Gizmo, Sounds like you guys are off to a great start. I started off using the exact same approach to get Earl to fly to his cage, and it probably works for some. However, I eventually found that Earl was actually becoming less and less interested in flying, and I put together that this was not a fun experience for him when he started to grip my hand as I was getting ready. After having that experience I recommend a slower more methodical approach that gives your Grey control. Here is a link that I found helpful: http://likambo.com/training/Recall_Training_Basics_article.pdf I recommend following steps 1-3 even though your grey is already flying. I found it worked best to have two chairs right against each other, have him on one and my hand (in step up position) on the other. Then very slowly I moved the chairs apart. Even though he could fly he was not confident at first and it took alot of retries at the jumping stage before he would actually fly. Now when he's out and can see me all I need to do is hold my hand like I want him to step up and call him, and he will immediatly fly to me. Soon I will start working on having him fly from room to room to find me. Once I started doing this and Earl got good at it I went back to having him fly to his cage, this time without swooshing my arm, and he now flies to his cage on command.

CuteMandaPanda wrote: I think this is the key. since you mentioned he likes grapes, but throws them on the floor when you offer them as a reward, I'm suspecting he's had negative experiences with hands in the past, similar to what domyoburk described. You might be able to find something he likes enough to overcome this, but I'm thinking that in your case, you need to focus on something more basic than step up, and thats taking food from your hand. As was mentioned earlier by Jane, you don't normally have to train parrots to like treats, but you may have to train him to not be afraid of your hand. Try putting the treat down and letting him retrieve it while you are nearby. keep repeating that, and each time keep your hand a little closer to the treat. If he refuses the treat at any point you can try backing your hand off and repeating from the previous distance again. The eventual goal is to still be touching the treat when he takes it, at that point you can try actually holding it in place, and finally you can try moving your hand with the treat slightly towards him. How fast all of this progresses depends entirely on your parrot. It could go fast, but if he's had some bad experiences with hands and doesn't trust them it might be slow going.

Hmm... I also use newspaper, and suspect it will be quite some time before all the newspapers go under. However, maybe paper grocery shopping bags would work.

Jane has some great advice. I would add that if possible its helpful to identify 3-4 rewards work. If he never knows exactly what his reward will be, but he knows its always something good, he may remain interested longer. Regarding throwing food he normally seems to like. Its possible that he's just not interested in it, but I'm curious, what has been your past reaction when he did this? Your reaction, or the reaction of the previous owner could conceivably have re-enforced this behavior, if for example he discovered that when he throws a treat, an even better treat is sometimes given, or if he seems to get all kinds of attention when he throws the treat.

I agree with luvparrots. However, if you just have one food bowl consider spreading food around his cage in various locations, so he gets some exercise moving about. The following DVD has some good suggestions you might find helpful. “Captive Foraging: The Next Best Thing to Being. Free” By Scott Echols

Ziva, you say the heater is for your Grey? I've always been told space heaters weren't a good idea for birds, how cold is the room?

my vet also does an exam every 6 months, with some additional tests once a year. actually because Earl was only 4 months old for his first exam he just had a second exam at 5 months, now he's on the 6 month schedule.

Jane, thanks for mentioning that you found the caregiver course helpful. I'm thinking that once the holidays past, I'll look into participating in that as well.

Hmm... I do agree with you to a point. Negative reinforcement is a very natural process, and completely eliminating it from our tool set appears to limit our flexibility. Its interesting to note, that you are giving Dayo the option of pushing away your hand in situations where a step up is optional. Did you notice whether he became more likely to choose to step up on his own, once he learned he had this choice?

Dan, what are some things you disagree with? I've only read about half the articles, but haven't found anything I completely disagree with, although I've found a few things I simply never considered (like contra freeloading)

The jan/2010 issue of bird talk has an article titled "Grey Menu" which I found informative. In particular its the first article I've found that discussed Grey's having higher protein requirements than many parrots. It recommended using a pellet with about 18% protein, which from my research would be Harrison's High Potency, or Kaytee(Roudybush and Zupreem, which are the 2 I'm currently using have 11% and 14%). So, I'll be attempting to switch to Harrison's as well.

Just thought I'd pass on the link to some articles I found online which I felt were very informative. http://www.behaviorworks.org/htm/articles_behavior_change.html Note I was particularly pleased by this find because in addition to being free, these articles were written by someone with real professional credentials.<br><br>Post edited by: particle77, at: 2009/11/28 07:16

Earl's favorites are dried papaya, and pumpkin seed. He's also pretty fond of scrambled eggs, chicken, and pasta.

Grey's can carry, transmit, and die from salmonella. Its important to clean your Grey's cage regularly to reduce this risk. With any animal its usually a good idea to wash your own hands after playing.

I started with a feather tether, and actually found it easier to put on and take off than the aviator harness. however so did Earl, as he eventually learned to open the clips that hold it together. the aviator harness took a little longer to get used to, as lifting the wings, rather than passing something under them was definitely not something Earl was interested in trying initially, but it does have the advantage of not being as easy for your parrot to remove. The one warning I have regarding the aviator, is to pay attention if your parrot fiddles with the part of the aviator harness that adjust how/tight loose the harness is. Earl used to like to loosen/tighten the harness, and while a little loosening isn't a big problem he pulled it too tight once and gave me a scare as I didn't realize it until he started gasping... Luckily he doesn't seem to loosen/tighten his harness anymore, but I check it regularly while we are walking.

Earl and I primarily explore walking/hiking trails outside. Sometimes we go shopping for parrot toys, as most pet stores are animal friendly. I'd love to find some other indoor places, but I'm pretty hesitant, because even though Earl is potty trained, and will go on command before entering a building, I'd be really nervous about having an accident somewhere.

Yeah, not only does your house look different from up above, but most of our parrots probably haven't been challenged to learn how to make a long trip from point A to point B without our guidance. Even now, I can take a trip with someone and have no idea how I got there if I don't pay attention, and that's a learned skill that we all build up over time. I'm sure its much the same with birds, and why pet birds that love there owners often don't find there way back. I'm not sure how often places like sea world that have trained free flighted parrots loose them, but I suspect they go through rigorous training, that forces them to exercise that part of there brain.

And here is the completed masterpiece! <br><br>Post edited by: particle77, at: 2009/11/23 05:01

doh.. 500 pixl limit... <br><br>Post edited by: particle77, at: 2009/11/23 04:58

Ok we gave this a try tonight <br><br>Post edited by: particle77, at: 2009/11/23 04:24

I'm not sure if this is what you mean by eye games, but I used to play a blinking game with my eclectus. I would watch her for a while and blink every time she blinked. She would normally catch on and start blinking more often, to see me blink, and altering the length. Sometimes blinking with just one eye, or both. Eventually she'd get crafty and close both her eyes for a long time, then open them to see if my eyes were open. We would also reverse the game sometimes, so I was instigating the blinking and she was copying. I have no idea how you would actually train this, it just kind of came about naturally from me mimicking her.