Moobu

Video is still incoming I've just been swamped repairing computers and doing school work.

Sure I'll try and find time tomorrow to upload it. What I find funny is almost everyone on here is talking about how their birds are less than a year old when they do this. Linus is turning 22. =P

I wasn't concerned I was just curious if there was any meaning behind it. Yeah it looks like he's digging. =)

Today I set Linus on the floor so he could roam around and check things out like he usually does and he started acting very awkward. He walked up to a stack of pillows, put his beak to the floor, and started scratching right in front of the pillows on the floor with 1 foot. He sat there and did this for a good 5-10 minutes until he waddled out to the kitchen and did the exact same thing in front of the dishwasher. He just sat there and scratched and scratched with one foot. I'm not 100% sure if there is any significance with this behavior but I thought I would share. I shot a little bit of video of him doing it if anybody would like to take a look.

Dave I don't understand your apology. I thought your tip was a good one that I would like to start using. Who exactly do you feel you offended?

JillyBeanz wrote: Well, just to let you know, it wasn't me - I would tell you I was doing it - although you haven't annoyed me enough to do this (yet!!). Also - you haven't helped yourself by posting this - your posts can read as quite rude, I'm afraid!! Also - it doesn't have to be people involved in this topic - anyone can take a dislike to a situation - so don't just assume it was one of us who have posted!! All threads don't stay directly bang on topic - they deviate slightly - but the comments about the newspaper IS related to your post. Why use something that isn't proven, if you can use something that is! What's the old saying "Don't fix what isn't broken"! Oh look - one of mine has been taken too!!! What a HUGE surprise!! Don't worry though - I'll get mine back - it'll take you a while to strip me of mine!! AND I STILL HAVEN'T REMOVED ONE OF YOURS!! To quote yourself - I'm not spiteful or immature!! Post edited by: JillyBeanz, at: 2009/10/14 10:18<br><br>Post edited by: JillyBeanz, at: 2009/10/14 10:46 And I assume you want me to think she was baking me a truce cake and being an angel in this post correct? Show me ANYTHING in this topic before this post that warrants this treatment. If you think I'M the one doing the harassment then you may want to brush up on your definition of the word. I'm almost willing to challenge you to find a topic on this whole website where she HASN'T come in and started a flame war with me.

judygram wrote: So let me get this straight.. one of the MODERATORS here is WITNESSING HARASSMENT and telling the person being harassed they have no right to politely ask to be left alone by their verbal assailant. That the verbal assailant has every right in the world to follow them around and do their absolute damnedest to make this website as unenjoyable as possible for 1 person without consequence... yeah.... Are you even aware of how a traditional moderator works? There needs to be some serious rules laid down here because at this point its just sickening. I'm being ridiculed because I refuse to lay down and conform with the rest of you. I have my own thought out opinions that differ from the "norm" around here and when I ask for a friendly freaking answer I'm met with nothing but strife no matter how genuine or helpful the topic may be. At this point I would love to ask a moderator to step in and lend me help in my dilemma... the only problem is she's too busy making biased posts to side with her FRIEND who won't stop harassing me every topic I make. I guess my only hope is to rely on danmcq and hope for the best. He seems to be one of the cooler people around here...

JillyBeanz wrote: Well, just to let you know, it wasn't me - I would tell you I was doing it - although you haven't annoyed me enough to do this (yet!!). Also - you haven't helped yourself by posting this - your posts can read as quite rude, I'm afraid!! Also - it doesn't have to be people involved in this topic - anyone can take a dislike to a situation - so don't just assume it was one of us who have posted!! All threads don't stay directly bang on topic - they deviate slightly - but the comments about the newspaper IS related to your post. Why use something that isn't proven, if you can use something that is! What's the old saying "Don't fix what isn't broken"! Oh look - one of mine has been taken too!!! What a HUGE surprise!! Don't worry though - I'll get mine back - it'll take you a while to strip me of mine!! AND I STILL HAVEN'T REMOVED ONE OF YOURS!! To quote yourself - I'm not spiteful or immature!! Post edited by: JillyBeanz, at: 2009/10/14 10:18<br><br>Post edited by: JillyBeanz, at: 2009/10/14 10:46 I didn't touch your karma. Nice of you to accuse me of something I didn't do though. And point out where in my post i said "jillybeanz burned my karma and she needs to be ashamed" because I'm having trouble finding it! :pinch: Anyways, the newspaper is very irrelivent to my question because I didn't ask anything close to "what do you guys think of using wax paper as liner" or "what is your opinion on wax paper vs news paper" I specifically asked "are there any health risks to using wax paper" which is a question that has still went 100% unanswered. You just can't refrain from stirring the pot in any of my topics no matter the subject matter can you? I'm going to respectfully ask that if you can't manage to behave in a topic I post have the decency to just not post in them then. Not once did I attack, mention, belittle, comment, or even acknowledge your existence and here you are (AGAIN I might add..) jumping down my throat and attempting to be the center of attention. Its getting old and making this community incredibly unenjoyable. So again, please just refrain from saying anything in my topics since you seem completely incapable of not trying to stir up trouble when you do.

I still use newspaper right now because of how cheap it is. I just want to play with the idea that wax paper may be much easier to clean up as well as it being easier to maintain. I'd like to point out that my question still hasn't been answered. This topic has been turned into a whole lot of "I don't do that its too expensive!" and absolutely no "Well (insert reason here) may cause you some concern if a bird shreds it." or "This may be harmful because it has this process of being made." Lets try to stay on topic eh? PS Judy: I've been buying my rolls of wax paper from a super market chain called Sentry Foods. I'm unsure where you live or if you have ever heard of this particular chain but yeah. 75 cents per big roll. =) I assumed this was the norm lol. Edit: Just realized I've been marked down 2 karma. How immature of whoever did that to mark me down for asking the simple question of whether or not wax paper is harmful to a bird or not. I wasn't out to start any trouble and I get punished for trying to acquire some genuine knowledge? Seriously? Since I lost 2 karma I' going to assume there are 2 very spiteful people in this topic that this website would be a much friendlier place without.<br><br>Post edited by: Moobu, at: 2009/10/14 10:08

I'm not sure where you guys are getting your freezer paper, but at 75 cents a roll around here I find it to be a very comparable price to the paper. With the added benefits it brings I feel it might be something to consider. This is completely off topic though. My concern was whether or not I need to worry about any harmful side effects from freezer paper being shredded by my birds. As far as I can tell there aren't any but I'd like to see what others have to bring up also. Keep in mind I'm not looking for OPINIONS on the paper. I'm looking for fact based reasons it could be harmful to use. (especially with a bird that will be chewing it up!)

I've seen quite a few recommendations on using this as cage liner for the benefits it gives. I'm concerned that it may be harmful to my birds who like to shred their cage lining. The benefits gained from using a non absorbent paper are its easier to see their droppings and tell if they are sick and easier clean up because you can just roll up the top sheet and the sheets below it will be clean and good to go. Can anyone add any educated information about potential risks of using this paper?

Well I turned the store in question into PETA. I gave them a link to this exact thread since I figured it is all put together already and easy for them to read. We'll see what comes of it. I hope I am left in the information loop as to what steps are taken and how I can help via more covert spy photos.

That doesn't look like good news. I just watched an episode of "the verminators" or whatever and they live trapped a raccoon because it snuck into the guys back yard and ripped his BG Macaw to pieces through the cage. =( I guess he had a sleeping cage outside because his bird enjoyed the night time air when he slept.

In the city that I live in there is a pet store called Pet Land. This chain of stores is particularly notorious for purchasing "puppy mill" puppies as well as taking as minimal care of their animals as possible. They cut so many corners in what is presumably "budgeting" that I was compelled to actually take pictures of the conditions and try and rescue these birds. The problem is the "minimal care" part. I'm not sure I have efficient evidence to build a case against the store. They have 1 Scarlet Macaw, (might be a ruby i don't remember)2 Umbrella Cockatoos, 2 Cockatiels, 5 Sun Conures, (4 of which are freshly hatched) 2 African Greys, (Hatched this past July 4th), 1 Green Capped Amazon?, and probably 50 assorted parakeets. -The Macaw- To start off the Macaw is in a large acrylic cube with a metal grate on top. It looks sufficient in size. The issue is the ONLY perch is a medium sized plastic pyramid pipe type construction that is only about 6 inches high. They put this on 4 bowls to act as boosters to raise the maximum height this bird can perch to about 8 inches off of the floor. His food and water dishes are shoved in opposite corners on the floor where he can easily track and kick droppings into them as he walks across the floor to get to them. He also has a single shredded and disgusting looking toy that I would guess was recycled from another bird years ago. He frequently hangs from the top of the cage since those are the only bars available to grasp. This means he spends a vast majority of his day totally inverted. He will also hang down and his tail feathers will brush across the clear wall and leave very noticeable steaks of poop where ever it contacts. They claim he gets out about once a week but I find that hard to believe as I stop in there frequently to check on conditions and have never once seen him out. I have heard plenty of employee complaints about taking him out because he is so hard to put away though! Umbi Cockatoos There are two of these magnificent birds in a cage slightly larger than what is needed for 1 in my opinion. One is very active and inquisitive and the second one is very shy and timid towards people. They use a kind of stuffing like bedding that looks like its made out of old sheets or something to line the cage. This is the only cage I have ever seen this bedding in at this establishment. The catch is there is about a 4 inch layer of seeds covering at least half of the entire bottom at all times. One of the managers told me this is only because every time they give them food in the morning they empty the entire contents of the bowl into the bottom then pick it up and eat it throughout the day. Two problems I see is there is NO WAY they are emptying out what looks like half a bag of food in one serving and the grate is about 5 inches higher than the bottom making it impossible for them to reach the food. This cage has exactly 2 intersecting perches and NO TOYS in it. I have also noticed occasionally their water will be so filthy and grimy it reminds me of gravy. One of the birds likes to dip their seeds before eating. I also know from asking employees that they have been in these conditions for at least 3 years. There is also a photo of the inquisitive too's leg which looks to me like the start of feather plucking. Cockatiels Not much to be said, the cage is small, they have room for one of them to open wings to a full spread if they were in the middle of the cage. If I remember right there was a small plastic toy that didn't see much use but I could be wrong about there being one. Sun Conures There are 2 cube containers for these birds. A group of 4 that came in last year and only 1 remains in his own cube, and a few cubes down a group of 4 babies brought in about a week ago. They all have similar living conditions to the macaw. They at least have a tall enough plastic pipe structure to get them off of the ground. The single conure has poop on his lower half and his food and water are again on the ground in the corners ready to catch any and everything that falls in. The cube area of 4 conures is set up identical except all the birds are pooping on each other because 2 will stay up top when 2 go down to eat or forage or find SOME WAY to try and entertain themselves and get pooped on. African Greys These little cuties just arrived about a week ago at the same time as the new batch of Sun Conures. They are only about 3 months old, wings are fully clipped, they are not done being weaned as the manager is still preforming these duties. They have a male and a female. Both are congos. These birds have absolutely NOTHING in their acrylic cubicle. Not a single toy or perch. They do have a dish of water sitting on the ground in the corner. The first day I was in I noticed the male CAG was throwing up. The manager told me not to worry about it because he just overfed him a little bit. I have no experience weaning birds but that sounds very fishy to me. I also handled the female for a little bit, she isn't very accepting of hands yet and hasn't been taught to step up. The excuse the pet store gave me for her being hard to handle was that she didn't know how to perch yet. She then walked over to the bird and picked her up from a PERCH that she was PERCHING on behind the counter. She seemed to be doing okay other than she had droppings on her lower half. Blue Capped Amazon I don't remember this birds exact breed but I do know that it is an amazon. The bird seems to be in a cage too small for it as it is very narrow and tall or pillar shaped. Standard routines apply here with dirty cage bottom, dirty water depending on the day for severity, and absolutely nothing to stimulate this birds mind. Parakeets The largest bin of birds with a large multiplex pipe construct for a perch with multiple toys. Overall they look to be the best maintained other than their water and food gets contaminated because of the insistence of putting food and water dishes on the bottom of the container in the corners. Also some birds get pooped on being under the perch. Finally they do an extensive amount of foraging through their droppings. Misc. Just making this little section to describe the cube containers better. It is a medium sized bin lined with a beady pellet type of bed lining. The boxes are probably about 1.5 foot by 1.5 foot maybe 2x2. I just ran and grabbed my cell phone at the end of typing this. I'll work on uploading these photos to help paint the picture better. Post edited by: Moobu, at: 2009/09/17 15:38 Post edited by: Moobu, at: 2009/09/17 15:47<br><br>Post edited by: Moobu, at: 2009/09/17 15:49

Amazingly stunning display of a red factor. =)

Both Barney and Onyx bite their feet occasionally. Barney seems to focus on the tips of his toe nails so I assume he is grooming himself. Onyx on the other hand... He will drop his head low and wrap his foot around his own face. Then he kind of uses his back toe to scratch the top inside of his beak. It looks really funny!

Sorry to hear that Tyco, I have a similar experience with my fiance and mom being very cautious about birds because of my conure. Onyx was hatched and raised by an older gentleman for the first 2 years of his life and up till about 6 months ago never even saw a female human before. We're working diligently to stop him from charging any girl to approach the cage and get him more sociable. Needless to say my fiance took a pretty wicked bite to the finger tip and seeing that was enough to instill fear into my mom. They're both getting better since Linus, one of my greys, prefers women greatly to men. Although he does let men handle him.

Double post.<br><br>Post edited by: Moobu, at: 2009/09/09 11:29

I've never seen anything suggesting they can't. Just make sure you only feed the fruit flesh just to be on the safe side. It seems the pits/seeds of the fruits are usually what are unsafe. Can anyone confirm beyond a doubt that pears are safe? I've only never seen them listed as unsafe but would feel horrible if something happened and I was wrong.

The way I've had the most success with was timing your birds intervals firstly. You'll find they're rather consistent. Then when the bird is on you pay attention to the clock or set an alarm or something, set the bird in the designated spot and repeat a phrase such as "go potty". When the bird goes promptly reward it with a treat. Continue this and before you know it you'll start seeing results. As with all parrot training patience is a virtue.

Jane you are only looking at half of the picture painted here as far as I can tell. From your response it seems you are imagining making the "negative" noise during something you don't want to happen then giving a reward as you would for the positive reward. Keep in mind I'm wondering if giving some form of "anti reward" like being set down and left alone for a little bit would create a reaction in the bird understanding that action x created noise x and noise x gave me reward x where action y created noise y and gave me anti reward y. Dan that's a funny story about your grey growling back lol. In the example you gave about bowl throwing.. do you think it would be possible to create an alternative way to create the sound for the bird in order to stop the throwing?

Do you think enforcing a negative method similar to the positive method at the same time would be effective though? For lack of a better sound coming to mind lets say you use the standard clicker sound as your positive reinforcement. Could you use say... another sound such as a specific bell ring (bad example I know, insert good sound here that can be used) to train the bird that this was wrong and this was right? One would assume, if given the correct "anti rewards", this would be just as effective at training your parrot what not to do to create bad sound x as it would be to train him on what to do to create good sound x. I've heard nothing but bad things about practiced negative reinforcement. I think this is good food for thought though.

It sounds like practicing subtle negative reinforcement as a last resort. Setting them down would be a negative they dislike for their action. As far as I understand you don't want to punish your bird outright and the goal is to more anti reward him. Sounds similar I know but I mean obviously no yelling at him but the negative punishment would be taking contact with me away for a little bit. Does this about sum it up? Does anybody know if finding a sound to play to demonstrate a negative action and train them in a double fashion is plausible?

Char wrote: I know what you mean. I was traveling on the interstate one day near Thanksgiving. I saw a truck load of turkeys go by with crates stacked in an OPEN bed truck. They were packed in there like sardines. The temp was about 36 degrees but you can imagine the will chill going down the highway at 75 mph. The poor creatures feathers were nearly all blown off and they must have been freezing. I know they have to go to slaughter but do they have to suffer on the way there? I tried to catch up with the truck to see a company name so I could call them to "discuss" it but couldn't as my exit came up too quickly.<br><br>Post edited by: Char, at: 2009/02/22 18:25 That's worse than the time I saw a trailer made of pure diamond plate steel driving around stuffed with a good 30 puppies at least. Oh yeah, and it was like 90 degrees out so there were 30 tongues hanging out of slim slots all over this oven.. I mean trailer. It was a very confined space too. Just enough room to fit the dog and shut the door. The trailer itself was no larger than a small pop up camper. (in its fully compacted and folded state.) I don't know if anybody has a Pet Land around them but they openly purchase puppy mill puppies and ex employees said it was frequent to have to dispose of dead puppies straight off the truck when they got new shipments in. =( The local store also has a scarlet macaw that was hatched there. His cage is nothing more than a large acrylic box with a grate on the top. I don't recall if he just had a large pyramid type of ground perch in the middle or if there was also a grate to protect the bird from its own droppings. One thing I remember for sure is the poor guy was covered in his own droppings and he's been there for at least 2 and a half years now.

I learned my positive reinforcement techniques from the ever controversial Chet Womach videos and I feel I may be missing a few tidbits of information. Firstly my method I have derived of PR training is pretty simple and as far as I know spot on. 1.) Train the bird to recognize a click from a clicker to mean they are getting a treat. 2.)Use the clicker the moment a bird finishes doing the desired action and promptly give a treat. 3.) Completely ignore all bad behaviors as if they did not happen to help discourage them. 4.) Never under any circumstances negatively punish your birds in a physical or vocal way. Please correct or add any information in the list as you see fit. I appreciate reasoning behind corrections if possible as hit helps me to see the purpose of the change. Number 3 and 4 are where I am the most fuzzy. How do we go about untraining behaviors we do not want? As an example, Barney occasionally gets in a very chewey mood when in my lap or on my shoulder. I obviously prefer my clothing without giant beak shaped holes ripped throughout them. Another example I would like to correct is maybe trying to get Barney and Onyx to stop shredding their droppings papers. Onyx can reach his through his grate when Barney only really has access to the stand perch outside of his cage. I've already attempted wadding up newspaper and tried using it as a distraction to shred. No luck.