daviddogma

Yes, yes you do!

CursingLlama wrote: Again, if one accepts that the natural state of a bird is to fly then that would be premise enough to move this debate regarding wing clipping. This is where I am starting from. If you do not accept this premise please attack it. This was all I ever was trying to say regarding wing clipping. Maybe this seems like I am repeating the same thing over and over...maybe I am. I am trying to clarify my point regarding the sorcartic method, the great conversation, argument, debate in general. I know I break things down using analytical philosophy techniques, but it is the only way I understand how to have clear debate. One last time, if you accept the premise of the natural state for a bird is to have wings then why clip? I guess a better question (and I have not asked it because I didn't want to be confrontational, but that seems to have failed so here goes) might be, how do you live with the guilt of taking away the very thing that makes a bird a bird? This is a specific question intended for specific answers regarding this question. Dave: How do you live with the guilt of taking away the very thing that makes a bird a bird? AG Reply: How do you live with the guilt of taking a bird away from the wild? Please, this is the sort of thing that moves this debate in a different direction. I do not believe they are the same thing. If you do believe they are the same thing than I understand why you clip wings. This will be the last time I post on this thread as I fear I am said to much and upset too many in the flock based on some of the PMs I have received.

CeasarsDad wrote: What does "sales" ability have to do with logic and reason?

CeasarsDad wrote: Are you drawing a line between clipping wings for no reason on this? I am confused.... Not sure why you are confused except to say you think like a machine and I do not.. You are digital and I am analog.. You have a "matter of fact" approach to things and I don't.. You see Black and White and I see a million shades of Grey... Don't get me wrong on this.. I'm not saying you are wrong in your processes.. I'm only saying that we have completely different ways of looking at things.. I take the thinking as a machine as a huge compliment. Machines are for the most part pretty consistent. I was confused because in your analogy you said that the aliens removed the thumbs for no reason, and I don't understand why. If they removed the thumbs for no reason why wouldn't they eat me for no reason? It also seems to me (please correct me if I am incorrect as I am making as assumption) that if you are comparing the aliens removing thumbs for no reason to clipping wings. It stands to reason that there is no reason to clip wings....

CursingLlama wrote: That is not true. Unless you disagree that the natural state for a bird is to fly. Since it is natural for a bird to fly and you are altering this natural state, you must prove the "reasoning" behind it. I am willing to look at all sides, I am simply saying that the burden of proof is on the wing clippers in this situation. I have stated my "proof" my claiming it is natural for a bird to fly. That is my side. I have been waiting around for someone to use any argument besides one of human convenience for wing clipping and so far I have yet to read one. All the "safety" issues that I have read about have really been about convenience (it was more convenient to clip the bird than to turn the ceiling fan off).

LOL. I have learned a lot about the "culture" of this forum, that's for sure ;-)

CeasarsDad wrote: Are you drawing a line between clipping wings for no reason on this? I am confused....

MrSpock wrote: Great article. It seems like the difference between domesticated animal and wild animal has to do with certain breeds existing in the wild. Dogs for instance if left in the wild would eventually breed (scientists speculate) into one thing, the common dog (I have read it would look like the dingo). There would be no more pit bulls, dobermans, etc. This is if all the dogs were turned loose left to run in the wild. Maybe I just dreamt this data up, but it is late and I have had too much medicine to validate. Anyway, the African Grey would continue to exist as it does in wild conditons. Now, and I know this is moving off topic, but....what about humans and race? Well, I will save that to my own personal journal entry. Can wild and domesticated be categorized this way? Or does domesticated animal simply mean there are no more of it left in the wild? This time I know I am on topic, cause I just looked at the subject line

CeasarsDad wrote: 1. How did you arrive at the data of 1000 times? 2. I guess it is all about how you define what is and isn't "better off" to a bird. 3. How is this short sided? Can we not take things one at a time? If two birds were in identical situations (notice I wrote, "If"....this is not a chance to say no two birds are ever in two identical situations, can you work with me a little on this, please?) would you agree that clipping or not clipping wings would be better? Has anyone ever had two babies at the same time one clipped and one not clipped and documented the difference? Are there any parrot scientists out there? 4. If the debate is moot than why did you just post regarding it? 5. FYI - “Moot” is a very old word related to “meeting,” specifically a meeting where serious matters are discussed. Oddly enough, a moot point can be a point worth discussing at a meeting (or in court)—an unresolved question—or it can be the opposite: a point already settled and not worth discussing further. At any rate, “mute point” is simply wrong, as is the less common “mood point.”

CeasarsDad wrote: I often don't agree (nor disagree) with what I say either, I just go with a premise and run with it to see where the brainstorming takes me, and conclusions take me. I know it probably a selfish way of learning, but it often at the point where people all around me say a conversation is going nowhere do I really start learning. Thank You for the encouragement, the last think I ever want to do is just piss people off without any conversation ;-)

CeasarsDad wrote: David.. Do you live in a Black and White world? From reading all your posts I get the feeling that you are very much a victim of Black and White thinking.. Certainly you realize we live in a color world.. with many variables.. In fact, you make statements about the Grey and his wings when you have no idea what the Grey is thinking when he finds out he can't fly.. That's an interesting point isn't it.. So if you are gonna use your "logic" on how the bird feels I would love to see just how you know EXACTLY how the bird feels.. Clearly you or anyone can't know this.. 1. All I was ever trying to say about this subject is that the burden of proof is on people clipping wings to prove it a better alternative to them being unclipped as the natural state of a bird (birds are not born with clipped wings) is unclipped wings. People who don't clip need not prove it is better than clipping via flawed logic or not as this is the natural state of the bird. 2. As for how the bird feels or what it thinks, well....you are correct I cannot speak to that nor did I ever claim to. I only stated what was the natural state for a bird to be born in. There are exceptions, but the majority of birds are born with the ability to fly. 3. I am unclear to what you mean about black and white thinking. If you mean "all or nothing" or "extreme" thinking well I guess that all depends on the premise put before me. I tend to take a premise and go with it "all the way" or to the furthest extremes to see where it takes me. I do change my mind when presented with new information. I do believe there are exceptions to every rule ;-) If you mean it be closed to any new ideas that is not the case. I try to never attack and argument or a person presenting an argument. I do, however, love to attack the premise of the argument as this is the basis of reason. 4. Sorry this isn't on topic, but I was answering a question ;-)

After the legendary Otis Blackwell.

1. When people talk about safety regarding the clipping issue they are actually saying it more convenient to clip wings than it is to make the environment a safe place for a flighted bird. At least these are the only answers I have read on this forum and others. 2. I was only trying to point out that a reasonable person would never have to justify not clipping the wings of a bird. Reason would point toward the people clipping to justify why. 3. I thought I was on topic with my posts. 4. I will stay on topic going forward. 5. Nicely done. LOL.

...and never got a bird from a breeder? I did a lot of research regarding the African Grey parrot, but a few things never really mattered until I brought Otis home with me. Now I keep thinking about Maya Angelou and her poem: The free bird leaps on the back of the win and floats downstream till the current ends and dips his wings in the orange sun rays and dares to claim the sky. But a bird that stalks down his narrow cage can seldom see through his bars of rage his wings are clipped and his feet are tied so he opens his throat to sing. The caged bird sings with fearful trill of the things unknown but longed for still and is tune is heard on the distant hillfor the caged bird sings of freedom Am I alone on this or is there anyone else out there that wishes they had of rescued and adopted instead of bringing home a little baby from a breeder? I can't help but feel like I am part of the problem. Oh well, I guess there is nothing I can do about now....

Well, there you go...but I don't believe in vets or doctors really either. My son was born at home, delivered by me with a mid-wife watching, home schooled, never had shots, and hasn't guess what? He hasn't been cut either